Facesitting

[Nathalie L 112512]

This thread is really upsetting, and I want to thank all of the service providers (both massage attendants and escorts) that have participated in it. What saddens (and enrages) me most is that what some of the clients in this thread have admitted to doing is something that happens all of the time, even by 'well-intentioned' and 'good' guys. So many men, in general, 'test their luck', push boundaries, and assume they can 'give us compliments' (cat calls), 'touch us' without our consent (a form of sexual assault), or 'have sex with us' because we 'were asking for it' (rape).

 

My boundaries are clearly stated on my website. I don't offer anal play on me, ever. Yet quite frequently as a man is going down on me he will lick my asshole without asking me first, or try to stick a finger in my ass while we are doing 69. When I react badly, they say "oh, but your asshole looks so inviting" or "oh, I didn't realize that", or "but it looked like you were enjoying it." This has happened with clients who have amazing references sometimes. Guys simply don't realize that it is NOT OK to do this without asking first.

 

Furthermore, sometimes, when I've reacted badly, they've actually tried to do it again. In the times that this has happened I have stopped the session and simply stated "if you continue doing this, even after I've said no multiple times, I want you to realize that what you're doing constitutes sexual assault." They lose their boner and go home feeling like I'm an angry feminist, and I don't give a fuck.

 

Any sex worker can offer any service they'd like, as long as those services are negotiated in advance and consensual. Don't assume complacency is consent. On my website I say I don't offer anal play on me, but if I didn't stop the client they would continue, and this is still a violation of my boundaries and constitutes sexual assault. Not all sex workers feel comfortable saying no to clients because they fear reprisal, bad reviews, or an escalation in the assault (licking my asshole could turn into raping me, if I protest too loudly).

 

Please seek out ENTHUSIASTIC consent from sex workers you meet. Never "test your luck" or assume you can do things without pre-negotiating first. Also, don't assume that all sex workers are good at negotiating consent face-to-face. Make ALL of your desires known BEFORE meeting with your sex worker of choice. It took me a long time to feel powerful enough to say 'no' to men who were doing things to me that made me feel uncomfortable. Women, in general, aren't taught how to do this. Keep that in mind.

[Genevieve Marceau 68000]

The most triggering thing for bros who came up here with personal attacks is the realization that a rapist/sex offender is not the big boogey man hiding in dark alleys waiting for a prey.

 

No darling, the bad guy is you who "test their luck" or who are "sorry after the fact".

 

When you push/don't respect sexual boundaries: you are a sexual predator.

 

When you engage in a certain sexual act without having first obtain permission: that is a sexual assault.

 

When you insist on sexual favours by saying other ladies do, or "I'll give you a great review: that's sexual coercion.

 

If you are going to fight me on this, at last please make an effort to not sound like a rapist apologist. Also, please try to make it not all about your ego.

[Shadowman007 1704]

I am fairly new to this board and hobby. And I just do not get this thread at all, I am an older guy, and my parents taught me to respect women. (they taught me to respect everyone, every race and every gender) Respect is very simple, listen and adhere to what is being told to you. If you respect women then crossing their boundaries should never ever happen! No matter what you may think, if it is discussed in previous exchanges and the answer is no, then quite frankly NO MEANS NO, and to violate that is akin to assault on any level. Even if it was not discussed, do not assume anything. Making assumptions simply means believing things are a certain way with little or no evidence that shows you are correct, and you can see at once how this can lead to terrible trouble. In Short, if not discussed don't do it, if discussed and not allowed, don't cross the line.

SM007

[Lycrathong 134]

Well at least the thread created some good debate, and brought forth some serious concerns from SPs and MAs. The thread got a bit off topic from the posts original inquiry. I understand and agree with the ladies point of view on consent, and I obviously was inquiring about the service being consensual. That being said, SPs going out of their way to make it clear to clients that they aren't pleasured by a client, more so the money, won't help generate any extra business in my opinion. Many men who see SPs believe the woman actually enjoys spending time with them. Some know its only business, some believe theres more of a connection. Just saying

[Genevieve Marceau 68000]

Well at least the thread created some good debate, and brought forth some serious concerns from SPs and MAs. The thread got a bit off topic from the posts original inquiry. I understand and agree with the ladies point of view on consent, and I obviously was inquiring about the service being consensual. That being said, SPs going out of their way to make it clear to clients that they aren't pleasured by a client, more so the money, won't help generate any extra business in my opinion. Many men who see SPs believe the woman actually enjoys spending time with them. Some know its only business, some believe theres more of a connection. Just saying

 

SPs: please respect our boundaries, don't rape/assault us.

 

Lycrathong: but what about my ego though? HAS ANYONE THOUGHT ABOUT MY EGO IN THIS DISCUSSION?!

[fortunateone 156618]

This is not about getting sick guys off as soon as possible .

 

 

i was just going to point out he was saying 'love sick' guys, not 'sick' guys. your points are still 100% of course.

[dominoeffect 1077]

This thread was grossly hijacked.

 

If you all would read the original post by "Lycrathong" as follows:

 

 

"Looking for good recommendations on a massage with facesetting included. Preferably Asian." as posted in the massage section... CLEARLY stating he would like a massage in the massage section with a preferred additional service added.

 

This used to be a heavily moderated act on this board what happened? I'm not disrespecting peoples arguments/points/narratives but why is Lycra being attacked here? The amount of projecting in this thread is unbelievable.

 

DoM

[Katherine of Halifax 113931]

i was just going to point out he was saying 'love sick' guys, not 'sick' guys. your points are still 100% of course.

 

 

Smiling at you !

[labialover 690]

I really appreciate some of the comments by the ladies in this thread.

 

I might be a "semi good guy" maybe.

 

I've always stayed within the boundaries during my encounters with sex workers when they've been clearly defined. That's a given and strive to find out what the boundaries are before engaging.

 

On the other hand, when things aren't clear, I have gone ahead without getting a green light and now realise more than ever how wrong that can be. Although, in the heat of the action I have stopped and asked for consent and stopped when told to, has to be.

 

In any case, to me, the woman's comfort is more important than mine. In fact I'd rather be told that I'm acting like a dumb ass than not.

 

From now on, I have to remember, bottom line, consent is the key. No "weinstein" for me.

[Caterina 2255]

Lycrathong, nobody is saying we do not enjoy our clients, especially our regulars. I think what is being said is that we as women who are MAs or SPs should not have to tolerate the blatant crossing of our boundaries or non consensual acts made upon us just to please a client and give him a good experience. If we are giving you the impression that we don't enjoy our work and it's all about the money by stating we won't tolerate non consensual acts, there's something wrong. With you, not us. I would never provide services that cross my VERY clear boundaries just because there's a connection with a regular. None of us should be worried about our income for being strong women with values and set boundaries. This board is not only for potential clients, it's for the women those clients may see too. Equating our restrictions and refusal to allow men to break them with losing business is disgusting on your part.

[opentonew 10077]

As in other aspects of life, believe that respect, consideration, and good communications are essential in this matter. Asking, rather than assuming, and staying within the domain of the activities which the other party has indicated are acceptable, are priorities in a session. It is important that neither party be assaulted or disrespected during an encounter.

[Brad 49548]

Lycrathong, nobody is saying we do not enjoy our clients, especially our regulars. I think what is being said is that we as women who are MAs or SPs should not have to tolerate the blatant crossing of our boundaries or non consensual acts made upon us just to please a client and give him a good experience. If we are giving you the impression that we don't enjoy our work and it's all about the money by stating we won't tolerate non consensual acts, there's something wrong. With you, not us. I would never provide services that cross my VERY clear boundaries just because there's a connection with a regular. None of us should be worried about our income for being strong women with values and set boundaries. This board is not only for potential clients, it's for the women those clients may see too. Equating our restrictions and refusal to allow men to break them with losing business is disgusting on your part.

 

Caterina, the spirit of your post is very well said and your points absolutely valid, but in Lycrathong's defense I don't think he personally argued or even meant to imply a woman's absolute right to her body or her restrictions should be compromised for the sake of business. There seemed to be a number of conversations going on, and I believe he was responding to a couple sentences in one specific post. Whether that poster meant to imply enjoyment played no part and it is only about the money I don't want to theorize about, as I don't mean to distract things from what is a worthwhile conversation.

 

There is a very important discussion happening here, but I think some comments and posters are perhaps getting crossed, and to be fair to Lycrathrong I don't think it was any of his posts that implied doing anything without prior and explicit consent.

 

More generally:

This thread started with one quarry and evolved into something more. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, as there are issues ladies face on a daily basis that--as much as us guys may wish to think otherwise--we can be blind to. When so many people speak up about an issue it's worth taking a step back from what your gut response might be and try to listen to the intent of the argument and the experiences being shared. As hard as it can be not to feel defensive or attacked, one can try to understand the frustration women are feeling and rightfully expressing.

 

Self reflection and consideration of these kind of issues is important, especially for those of us that take part in this. Hopefully we can keep listening to each other with empathy, to really hear and try to appreciate the experiences and frustration being shared. And to do better.

[WhereIRoam 21825]

There are names/titles currently being used among clients in this industry which are rarely being used by MAs. A so called line is no longer drawn between SPs and MAs, this is now a thing of the past. This old line is now drawn somewhere in the middle of Hybrid MAs.

 

There are SPs, Hybrid MAs and MAs. Generally, the wider variety of services offered to the least are in this same order. Although there are a few Hybrid MAs who offer a handful of more options than any SP I have ever met. Times have changed. Just as always, between every provider and client boundaries need to be clearly stated/defined and respected.

[Sensual Erin 33898]

In all fairness to Lycrathong, it was these comments that were made that had me react. They are from another member. This thread may have gone off topic, but these remarks concerned me. It may make some feel uncomfortable, but it needs to be addressed.

 

'Well I apologize if I offended anyone. In my personal opinion, if a lady performing a body slide has her lady parts on all the way on my face and lips, i've always taken it as an invitation especially if I told her I like that. Honestly, it only backfired on me once so far."

 

As well as.... "Quite frankly, there are also some MA that take bodyslide so far, that one has to wonder if thats not what she is asking for."

 

When I first started, I had no idea what a body slide was or how to even do one. It took time to learn to move my body this way. Sure enough though, along came someone knowing this, and asked me to preform a reverse body slide during our session. I was awkward to say the very least. Before I knew it, he tried to hold me in place and take advantage. There have been other events, but that one stands out the most in predatory behavior. It's unfortunate, but does exist.

 

Since I do come from a time before the new definitions were put in place, I would describe my session as the standard. I had never heard of a Hybrid MA until this past year. My understanding of Hybrid MA is that more may be offered, but not to be expected. The question was for an MA offers xxxx. Shouldn't a provider at least have the opportunity to make this decision in person? What if oral health is not up to standard? Is she still expected to provide this service, because she consented beforehand? Will he give a reference? If a name is mentioned in a public thread, will others now expect this? There is so much to consider for the provider to ensure her health and well being.

 

I may be old fashioned, but whatever happened to meeting someone first, respect her guidelines, and then to inquire if she's open to more for the next visit? It's a little extra effort, but isn't it worth it in the long run?

 

Many thanks to the gentleman that have contributed to this delicate subject. It takes courage to take a stand to what others may brush under the rug.

[Nesbot 598]

This is not about getting sick guys off as soon as possible . It is about respect and not crossing our boundaries. Let's please keep it that easy if you having a hard time understanding .

 

I love my hair stylist, nail tech and my RMT. They all make me feel very good . I understand the relationship is different, however its a very personal service and I have known them for many years.( They are all beautiful ) . I can't imagine in the middle of a massage me thinking because I feel good perhaps I ought to do something in return, or touch them in an inappropriate way. Try to think of it like that .

 

I have had repeat clients for many years. If I treated them the way you suggest we feel, I would be out of business .

 

Simple, simple . Now stop sulking if it doesn't pertain to you . As already stated, the majority of those we meet are perfect gentlemen.

 

You're confused......I'm not going to defend myself here cause honestly why bother. I'll just say again what I said. The post I forgot to quote was very well stated. It was from and SP point of view.

 

If you weren't so defensive and actually read and understood what I was saying you wouldn't be so quick to attack me. But honestly I'm not surprised. Sigh....

[JohnnyJ1981 916]

What can I say but WOW, I was going for a week and the thread exploded. Obviously for the better as it generated solid debate. Since I seem to has started this whole issue, perhaps I can try to provide some closure. The views here are so narrow minded its like a left-wing politician try a to convince a right-wing supporter to change there views of politics!

 

I will concede that that some ladies made some valuable arguments. But I think the whole thing went off rails when we started talking about rape, for my specific case.

 

I clearly agree, that in the case of Jackie, when a lady say she doesn't do anal play and the guys goes for it anyways, that's just wrong. I fully support that point of view. More so, attempting to do so again deserves nothing then a strong kick in the balls. But that is COMPLETELY different than what I said.

 

In my case, my intention were clearly stated during the booking PRIOR to me taken any action. I doubled check my initial post and I quote myself: "In the past I've communicated that I would like to pleasure her". As in there was clear verbal intention of my actions.

 

If a hobbyist says: I would like this service. And the MA replies: Sure for this donation. How on earth is that rape?

 

By that logic, pending a lady's mood that day ALL hobbyist are rapists and all MA/SP are guilty of leading a customer to believe he can get a service when she clearly has no intention of wanting to provide the service. Might as well be a bait-and-switch.

 

All the comments that all the ladies have made are valid under the pretence that the customer didn't express his interest for facesitting PRIOR to booking/or before performing any given action.

 

So many of my comments were taken out of that context, often in poor taste, where intention are clearly stated PRIOR. Looking at the initial post...It was simply a post of wanting to find an MA who provides, as in INCLUDED, facesitting.

 

Many pointed out to fact where I said "it backfired on me". I shall address that. Yes, the lady asked me to stop and I did so immediately. Initially I felt bad because the last thing I'd want to do would be to put a lady in a position where she actually has to say "stop". Other than looking like a complete asshole, its a mood killer. But a couples of moments later, I was thought to myself: why should I feel bad when I disclosed that I would like that service and the service is not being delivered?

 

Truth of the fact is that I have met many of the ladies here who debated here, most of them more then once or twice. And oh it is ever tempting to "kiss and tell" right about now...

 

To me it all boils to two things:

1- Communication prior to the booking

2- The lady needs to express that she doesn't allow the service

 

Otherwise, its not rape, it false advertisement. Period.

 

The only difference is one gets you in jail the other doesn't. I'd never thought I say this, but it really make wonder who bears the true risk.

[Brad 49548]

Johnny, I looked back at your earlier posts too, and I think part of the difficulty with them is it doesn't come across like you've clearly stated in prior communication your intention to proceed with certain activities.

 

You say things such as letting a lady know that you "like to please", "I state before that I enjoy it", and "I never state it has to happen". I'm not sure that's the same as asking if an activity is allowed.

 

And phrased like that, I don't think the onus is on the lady to say it isn't or assume you have an agreement. Especially since clearly many MA's think it not part of their profile. Can you see how MA's--who have chosen specifically to offer an MA experience--may rightfully assume they don't have to proactively say No? That implying you like something and not getting a No is not the same as getting a Yes?

 

Based on what people are saying, some MA's may indeed be open to discussing/allowing more. But clearly many do not and view such activities as outside their role. If indeed the line is blurred, is it not that much more important to be certain beforehand rather than potentially misread the situation?

 

I think the issue here is you believe you have asked permission and been given consent, but that is not clear. Even in your own words it sounded like you thought it was, at best, implied. Comments like

"if a lady leads me to it...", and

"I've always taken it as an invitation especially if I told her I like it..." or

"There have been times when the lady said during the booking 'no' so I wouldn't even dream of tempting my luck".

 

Can you see how that comes across as not having clear consent or prior agreement, for otherwise how would it ever be "tempting your luck?" Why need to wonder if it was an invitation? How would it ever "backfire?"

 

Maybe this is not how you meant it. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. But phrased the way you did it's easy to see how it reads as pushing boundaries and not "false advertisement".

[Guest l**3r**]

Can this whole thread be pinned please?

 

There is a helluva lot of important content in this discussion that I think would be very helpful not only to refer back to later but also to be up front and center for random newcomers to read... (..maybe with a more relevant thread topic if that's possible, though..)

[Phaedrus 209521]

It could be pinned. Get in touch with Mod and he can do it if he agrees.

 

There are indeed some fantastic posts here... but the problem with this thread is that it started on another topic. The title is irrelevant to much of the discussion, the good stuff is a thread-hijack, and then you've got the mess caused by complaints about the hijack and people getting confused about which posts were in response to what because there were multiple conversations going on at once. All that serves to dilute the impact of it, and it's a crying shame because some of these posts really deserve to be given prominence.

 

For future reference, everyone... follow Cat's example and kick off a new thread if need be. She knows how this stuff works.

[Guest l**3r**]

Bumping, for no better reason than to keep it on the first page.

[Gregsand 6116]

From the start, "facesitting" shouldn't be part of a massage. The same with kissing and other intimate things. What happens behind closed doors between two consenting adults is none of our businesses, but if expect sexual services from a massage therapist you're looking at the wrong place. The fact some SP's are posing as MA's doesn't make it right to assume they all are.

 

You may think there's nothing wrong in asking, but you got to understand the frustration of therapists constantly answering the same immature questions that shouldn't be asked in the first place!

 

Be respectful and talk to the right person for the right services.

[waterat 20911]

Bumping, for no better reason than to keep it on the first page.

So..... closing in on 2 years on the forum and you squander your 6th post for "no good reason". Please step up your game pal!

[Gntlmn 796]

This is a great (even if hugely tangentializated [sue me]) thread. It can make me a better Gntlmn, for sure. I think my easy go-to example for wanting/getting consent to an act is digits play. Sticking my fingers in a nice, warm, moist place is fun. BUT it's obviously an invasion (intercourse is a more obvious discussion which is why I went with digits for more subtlety). Her fun place is obviously currently void of my digits before I would ever venture there. If a provider is happily la-di-da-ing providing a nice service to me and suddenly her happy place is being attacked by a finger (possibility of dirt, nails, Auntie visits, etc.) it's obvious, to me, that this is a serious line being crossed (I know, duh!). So adjust other examples along a graduated scale/continuum and that should help, I think.

 

I once, long ago, licked a well-respected SP's (she's viewing this thread) asshole during DATY and she told me (I think, it was long ago and I continue to see her) that I can't do DATY if I do that. Hasn't happened since. And I actually don't really care to DATO much but I was in the vacinity, passionate, and I did it. Turning it around, I've had a few MAs suddenly stick a finger in my butt and I didn't like it but I wasn't mad. They did it to increase my release pleasure and I get that. And I also get that the service they've agreed to do is oriented towards me, and not in reverse.

 

Anyway, like I said, great thread. Let's have mutually beneficial and consensual fun!