The Provider vs. Client "Contract"

[mrgreen760 37785]

"Time for Money" Exactly! It's what the game is all about.

 

Peace

MG

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

In the U.S. most, if not all escorts, advertise clearly that the money paid is for the time of companionship and everything else that happen is something between consenting adults. The reason they do that is the fact that exchanging sexual services for money is completely illegal.

 

Given that prostitution is perfectly legal in Canada, a lot of escorts explicitly advertise for a menu of services without any pre-conditions mentioned. Some would explicitly state as well that they don't offer a menu and each encounter is unique depending on the chemistry.

 

Now for the first group, they clearly make it sexual services in exchange of money and they are bound by what they advertise for! For the others, the matter is time for money and there is a huge distinction between the two. There is nothing wrong with either of them but, in my view, providers should stand for what the advertise for.

 

We commonly see providers quoting GFE rate, PSE rate, and Greek BBBJ rate, for additional fees compared to their basic fees. So are we saying that for an additional 20,40 or 60 for Greek, for example, the nature of relationship suddenly shifted from time for money to sexual services for money!

 

I understand that at times the provider don't feel comfortable providing certain services for each client given the intimate nature of this business, but with all respects, providers can also explicitly state that some services are discretionary!

 

If we go back to OP question, he provided a clear example of a relationship that was accepted to by the provider before the session to be a certain sexual service in exchange for money. If it is a matter of pure time for money, then the provider should keep this argument until the client knocks her door but once she started to explicitly agree to provide certain services then she had essentially entered in an explicit relationship where sexual services are exchanged for money.

 

If we are to argue the provider is always right, then we will make the same mistake of saying the client is always right!

[cool cucumber 411]

What a fascinating thread. I think the most common theme and area of agreement I've read so far is that of mutual respect, for the SP from the hobbyist, and from the SP to the hobbyist. And where there is clear communication about expectations of behaviour on the website (e.g. greek or CIM is extra, hygiene beforehand by the client expected), the better the encounter.

 

But just to add something I haven't seen yet, I've found that being a gentleman and respectful leads to a much more enjoyable encounter, but more importantly, the willingness of an SP to also provide a reference for the hobbyist to other SP's. There are a few provider webpages I've seen where they ask if another SP is willing to provide a referral for the client. This helps to smooth over introductions and increase comfort for the first time being hobbyist and the new SP. I'd never risk offending an SP over a rude faux pas like not providing the envelope discreet fully and respectfully up front. I'd never want to find myself on a "bad john" board, I'd prefer the reverse much more, that a provider would willingly tell another one "Yes, I'd see him again. I enjoyed my time with him."

 

I also like to normally do my research in advance, and CERB is a great resource for that. So, I've never had a bad encounter where I feel like I somehow didn't get value for my donation amount, and more often, I ensure I've left a little extra as a tip (and sometimes even up front, if it is one of my favourite ladies who I know always goes above and beyond).

 

Did I have some encounters where something was agreed upon and then wasn't available? Yes, an SP I saw indicated she didn't feel ready for greek that day, but offered some of the donation back, alternate services or a discount on my next encounter. Which was perfectly satisfactory and respectful on her part -- I did not feel short changed and in fact preferred that she didn't do something she didn't want to do. And we had a wonderful time together having gotten that out of the way.

 

I think analogies to contracts, meals, concerts etc don't really apply. This is a very intimate encounter between two consenting adults. Where there is respect, communication, and comfort, good things will happen. Once one party or another tries to take advantage of the other or enters into the encounter with mistrust or reservations, only disappointment will result.

[WriteOn 3250]

"Time for Money" Exactly! It's what the game is all about.

 

Peace

MG

 

 

You pays your money and you takes your chances, period. No contract.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Fortunately, it's not happened to me yet. I rarely leave the envelope upfront and have only been asked once for it before starting. I did as asked with a smile and that was that. If it happens, be a gentlemen and just leave but don't see her again. I'd say it's live and learn.

 

You might be able to afford being a gentleman, but I am quiet sure that there are many out there who can't afford such a luxury to leave 250+ to show their lovely attributes. For them it is live or die for what they saved for the last several months/year.

 

"Time for Money" Exactly! It's what the game is all about.

 

Peace

MG

 

Good, so no body should complain then when the provider turn the TV to sports channel to watch the hockey game. It is time for money.

 

I wonder also why many providers advertise specifically for social rates. Is this a different type of time exchange!

You pays your money and you takes your chances, period. No contract.

 

This is called gambling and we are not licensed by the government to run private casinos.

[WriteOn 3250]

 

 

Good, so no body should complain then when the provider turn the TV to sports channel to watch the hockey game. It is time for money.

 

Well actually guys do complain about this, but what can a client do? A client has a couple of options, leave and get nothing out of the encounter or accept it and get what you can out of the encounter.

 

This is called gambling and we are not licensed by the government to run private casinos.

 

It is somewhat of a gamble, for both parties, with an encounter. That's why I always suggest to newbies to do as much research as possible before an encounter. There is no guarantee when you see a provider that it will be a mutually satisfying situation, hence, it is a gamble.

[cool cucumber 411]

I disagree about the notion of "gambling." If I as a hobbyist have checked CERB, read reviews, looked the SP's web site, it isn't hard to discern the professional from the amateur or potential risk SP. If I just go to .......... and take my chances, more likely that an unsatisfactory encounter occurs.

 

What is apparent is the ladies on this thread take their "side of the bargain" very seriously, in that when we as hobbyists show our trust up front by discreetly providing the envelope up front, they then can feel more relaxed and focused on a positive experience for both. Which doesn't necessarily mean pre-ordering from a fixed menu. It means going with what is working. I find that my requests for certain positions or activities are usually granted (knowing what is normally acceptable to his provider or not based on their website or precommunication), but being respectful if something isn't working e.g. certain position. It is a human encounter and interaction, not a piecemeal approach.

 

I almost think that the poster who indicated waiting till the end to pay "just in case" is almost setting up a less enjoyable encounter, with the SP being more wary and guarded.

 

I'd rather be a gentleman up front and just enjoy than treat it like a legal contract with clauses and compensation.

 

Let's also keep in mind that a SP who does this for a living assumes much more risk than a hobbyist who has the occasional encounter. Anything I can do to assure the SP that I am a safe and respectful client just leads to a better experience for us both.

[roamingguy 300291]

From the way this thread is going some men are worried about losing their couple hundred dollars, so they want to pay the lady (or say they will pay) at the end of an encounter, if the encounter meets their standards. Lets weigh real risks here. The guy could possibly lose a couple hundred dollars disposable income The lady could in fact lose actual income, needed to pay rent, car payment, bills, putting food on the table etc. Who really faces a true risk here? And any wonder ladies want payment up front.

Me, I see ladies for longer encounters where donations are over the thousand dollar mark, not a couple hundred dollars, and when available I pay via email money transfer

As for a contract based on menus, well most ladies I see don't even offer menus, the companionship they provide is based on an encounter unfolding naturally...and those encounters, while intimate details private, have been wonderful magical memories. And all those ladies have my utmost respect and admiration for the companionship they brought in my life

Finally one thing that needs to be mentioned. The ladies do provide a service...companionship, not just sexual services, but companionship.

That is something not every lady can do. But what sort of companionship is a lady going to be able to provide if the threat of not receiving her donation is hanging over her head, until the end of the encounter? And the lady's companionship has a intangible value far exceeding any donation asked for.

So if you say you are a gentleman, really be one, pay up front. No lady should ever have to be worried about receiving her payment. And understand, in this lifestyle, YMMV is a normal industry standard. If you treat an encounter like meeting a woman for a conventional date (freshly showered/shaved/fresh breath/clean clothes etc) then you should have no problems.

A rambling from a gentleman who happily pays up front, and will continue to do so, because that is what a gentleman does

RG

[Happyjack 1090]

I just want to say that I would never want an SP to do anything that she didn't feel comfortable doing. Full stop. If things don't work out as I hoped well that is just life. I will get over it.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

We need to distinguish between the provider living up to what she has agreed for, whether through advertisement or private communications, and the client achieving his own standards of ultimate satisfaction!

 

This thread is premised on a very specific question and if someone feels that the issue of paying the donation upfront vs. later is worthy of a discussion, then he/she could easily start a new thread, but to amalgamate two loaded issues in one thread is confusing, at least, for my primitive faculties!

 

We, as providers are not always prefect, the same applies to clients. I honestly saw a very legitimate question raised in this thread and at the same time felt that the answers were missing the real issue. There are many new hobbyists and new providers in this forum.

 

If there is a worthy message to say to any new fellow provider is simply to articulate her advertisement and private communications in a careful way according to what she is willing and capable to offer. Leaving a room for those very intimate requests which require, at least, seeing the client is a wise thing to do.

[withpassion 914]

I think some posters see the world in black and white, when the reality is there are a myriad of colours.

 

Some say, basically, NEVER see any providers other than those on CERB. If you do, you take your chances. I feel badly for those other SP's who are also trying to pay their bills, etc., and I think it's in bad taste to even try to restrict whom we, as hobbyists, should or should not see purely on the premise that CERB SP's good, any others, BAD!

 

Some people are okay with spending thousands and letting things flow and if that is what YOU like, then enjoy. But, sorry, not everyone has that advantage.

 

Others do, in fact, seek out certain specific services. To call those people somehow inferior, rude, insensitive, off the mark or whatever is certainly disrespectful and narrow minded.

 

When those that do seek out and require specific services, it is discussed and agreed upon by both parties. YMMV cannot be used as an "excuse" for non-delivery of service. Yes, yes, there are always exceptions, but generally speaking, if the individual paying the freight is clean, there is no reason to balk unless the service was never intended to be delivered. That is breach of contract in anyone's world. Yes, once before the judge, the fact that the hobbyist had a penis that's 10 inches by 5 inches could be reason enough under the law for the refusal of greek. But, again, generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse. I won't get into the possible remedies as I will leave that for others to discuss.

 

Cheers!

[Gabriella Laurence 301886]

Edit.......

 

Changed my mind ;)

Looking back, it's not that important to me as my patrons and I understand each other and we do not need a contract to enjoy each other's company.

[MightyPen 67414]

I think some posters see the world in black and white, when the reality is there are a myriad of colours.

I agree with that statement. See: "irony". Also, call the above "Quote A".

 

Some say, basically, NEVER see any providers other than those on CERB. ... CERB SP's good, any others, BAD!

I think people have been saying that the women on CERB are a better-known quantity, that's all. In particular, the ladies here are active amongst a persistent public community and you have a chance to get to know them over time from their posting history and forum interactions. It's a rather long stretch to get from there to "GOOD vs. BAD" which, though I'm not going to read through the whole thread again, I don't think anybody has actually said (except you, there, just now).

 

Others do, in fact, seek out certain specific services.

I don't have a problem with people seeking specific services. I do that sometimes myself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with expressing a specific desire in advance.

 

The dispute centers around how one responds when the provider expresses, for any of a thousand possible reasons that may be important to her at the time, a disinclination to perform some intimate act with you once the session is underway.

 

YMMV cannot be used as an "excuse" for non-delivery of service. Yes, yes, there are always exceptions, but generally speaking, if the individual paying the freight is clean, there is no reason to balk unless the service was never intended to be delivered. ... generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse.

And THERE's the problem. The SP always has final discretion in the intimate service she chooses to provide. And you cannot know the SPs mind, or what might be compelling for her at a given moment or in a given situation. And yet look at your sweeping statements I've bolded above.

 

Now, go back and read "Quote A".

 

Yeah.

[Guest realnicehat]

 

When those that do seek out and require specific services, it is discussed and agreed upon by both parties. YMMV cannot be used as an "excuse" for non-delivery of service. Yes, yes, there are always exceptions, but generally speaking, if the individual paying the freight is clean, there is no reason to balk unless the service was never intended to be delivered. That is breach of contract in anyone's world. Yes, once before the judge, the fact that the hobbyist had a penis that's 10 inches by 5 inches could be reason enough under the law for the refusal of greek. But, again, generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse. I won't get into the possible remedies as I will leave that for others to discuss.

 

Cheers!

 

So, lets say a provider and client come to an agreement that greek will be offered during a session. The client arrives, he is very clean and has a very average size penis. In this situation, by your logic, "generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse".

 

But what if, over the course of the appointment, the client proves himself a rough and unskilled lover? If, during intercourse, he demonstrates that his one and only move is the jackhammer is the provider still obligated to suffer through what will be a very painful experience because "generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse"?

 

I think your assumption that should a provider refuse an agreed upon service then she never intended to deliver is flawed.

[Cleo Catra 178382]

So, lets say a provider and client come to an agreement that greek will be offered during a session. The client arrives, he is very clean and has a very average size penis. In this situation, by your logic, "generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse".

 

But what if, over the course of the appointment, the client proves himself a rough and unskilled lover? If, during intercourse, he demonstrates that his one and only move is the jackhammer is the provider still obligated to suffer through what will be a very painful experience because "generally speaking, there is no good reason to refuse"?

 

I think your assumption that should a provider refuse an agreed upon service then she never intended to deliver is flawed.

 

I've refused greek. Twice. There really was no 'good reason' for it, besides that as soon as we began, it HURT.

 

For one, I returned the greek premium. The other, I kept it for a future session.

 

In one instance, I believe we still had a great encounter. The other, I know he was disappointed.

 

But this IS where 'YMMV' comes in. I offer that service. It's not a size-based thing, but sometimes... you start and it HURTS. I offer strapon service as well, so believe me, I'm not the only one it can happen to.

 

Should I have felt obligated to grit my teeth and provide the service, despite the fact I would have been in pain the whole time? I sure hope not! I haven't had that client repeat, which does not surprise me as I am aware he came to me for something I didn't give him.

 

That doesn't mean I ripped him off, gave false advertising, etc etc. It just wasn't possible at that time. These are our bodies, they're not machines, we can't turn it to a certain setting and have it be the same every time.

 

Sometimes things don't work out.... so don't repeat. I don't see any other 'solution'.

[LeeRichards 177238]

Edit.......

 

Changed my mind ;)

Looking back, it's not that important to me as my patrons and I understand each other and we do not need a contract to enjoy each other's company.

 

Contracts in this case have their place.

 

My contract Gabby is written on my penis. It is blurry and hard to read tho until fully erect and then purrrfectly legible. I can leave a pen in my undies if you like to sign ?? but my preference is an oral contract however ;)

 

I do very much like to orally review contracts for long periods of time myself until they are orally orgasmed. Another phrase I use for legally binding.... I am a farmer oil rigger and stuff...not a lawyer. What do I know.....

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Ok, I'm going to vent here.....

 

On my profile, website, etc, I clearly state no greek - no back door action of any type.

 

However, I seem to get guys that want to play with my bum. I know its cute and awesome, but we are getting into the grove, and next thing I know, they are sticking their finger up my ass. No lube, no forewarning, just plug, their finger is in my ass. Then they take their finger and try to put it in my pussy.

 

I try to explain again, no back door action, and can you please clean your hands before we continue. They get all irritated, and don't seem to understand why I'm pissed.

 

Can I ask them for more money or should I show them to the door? No, I grit my teeth, and try to finish the call. Am I happy? Hell no. Not one sp has mentioned this. However, there are those of us that have been there.

 

Next time someone chooses not to give you a service - think.

 

End of rant......

[cyclo 30131]

 

If there is a worthy message to say to any new fellow provider is simply to articulate her advertisement and private communications in a careful way according to what she is willing and capable to offer. Leaving a room for those very intimate requests which require, at least, seeing the client is a wise thing to do.

 

This is a very good point. Ultimately it does come down to effective communication by both parties. That's not just stating what you want/or will provide, but also effective listening by both parties, as opposed to selective listening. Most disagreements or conflicts in life are not the result of fraud or someone trying to take advantage of another person. They result from legitimate misunderstandings. Once, the misunderstanding is realized, effective communication becomes even more important or the misunderstanding escalates to a conflict.

 

Now, for those of who would like to pursue the conflict route, that's where the law comes in lol. An offer of service by an sp and payment by a client is an oral contract, regardless of whether we like to think of it in those terms or not. But for those clients who think "Ah ha! That's what I've been saying." It's not that simple. As Samuel Goldwyn is claimed have said "A verbal contract isn't worth paper it's written on!"

 

Let's put aside for a moment the very real life personal issues that would arise from "actually appearing in court" over a dispute with a sp. In our hypothetical case, what would a judge be looking for?

 

The first thing to understand is that "the burden of proof" to show that there was a verbal agreement and that it has been violated falls to the person bringing the case to court. That's a pretty high bar. If the testimony is "he said/she said", you're pretty much assured you'll automatically lose without witnesses or supporting documentation.

 

Second, and even more importantly, you have to show that there was a "meeting of the minds". In other words, there is a shared understanding of what the "essential parts" of your agreement are. As many of the sp's have said in numerous posts, "ymmv is always front and centre in their minds". If a client hasn't also factored in ymmv as an "essential part" of the agreement, then you don't have a legal agreement because there's no meeting of the minds on this essential element. It might become an issue after the session starts because as Cleo pointed out above, "It hurts" or it could be because of any number of things such as hygiene, roughness, concern that the client will try bareback etc...). So, if you think you're legally entitled to xyz because you discussed "the possibility", think again. If you don't take into consideration ymmv, there was no "meeting of the minds" and no legal agreement.

 

Having said that, ymmv isn't a license to rip off clients. But as most people have said, if you choose a reputable sp, this is an extremely unlikely scenario. If on reflection you honestly believe you were the victim of a scam, you always have the option of posting about a Bait and Switch. If however on reflection you believe it was a misunderstanding, learn from it and communicate clearer up front in future.

 

If you've paid extra for a service such as Greek, and through no fault of yours, the sp cannot provide it in your session, Cleo's suggestion of refunding that portion or agreeing to put it towards your next session is a very reasonable and ethical option. Once again, the foundation for these solutions is effective communication.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

This is a very good point. Ultimately it does come down to effective communication by both parties. That's not just stating what you want/or will provide, but also effective listening by both parties, as opposed to selective listening. Most disagreements or conflicts in life are not the result of fraud or someone trying to take advantage of another person. They result from legitimate misunderstandings. Once, the misunderstanding is realized, effective communication becomes even more important or the misunderstanding escalates to a conflict.

 

Now, for those of who would like to pursue the conflict route, that's where the law comes in lol. An offer of service by an sp and payment by a client is an oral contract, regardless of whether we like to think of it in those terms or not. But for those clients who think "Ah ha! That's what I've been saying." It's not that simple. As Samuel Goldwyn is claimed have said "A verbal contract isn't worth paper it's written on!"

 

Let's put aside for a moment the very real life personal issues that would arise from "actually appearing in court" over a dispute with a sp. In our hypothetical case, what would a judge be looking for?

 

The first thing to understand is that "the burden of proof" to show that there was a verbal agreement and that it has been violated falls to the person bringing the case to court. That's a pretty high bar. If the testimony is "he said/she said", you're pretty much assured you'll automatically lose without witnesses or supporting documentation.

 

Second, and even more importantly, you have to show that there was a "meeting of the minds". In other words, there is a shared understanding of what the "essential parts" of your agreement are. As many of the sp's have said in numerous posts, "ymmv is always front and centre in their minds". If a client hasn't also factored in ymmv as an "essential part" of the agreement, then you don't have a legal agreement because there's no meeting of the minds on this essential element. It might become an issue after the session starts because as Cleo pointed out above, "It hurts" or it could be because of any number of things such as hygiene, roughness, concern that the client will try bareback etc...). So, if you think you're legally entitled to xyz because you discussed "the possibility", think again. If you don't take into consideration ymmv, there was no "meeting of the minds" and no legal agreement.

 

Having said that, ymmv isn't a license to rip off clients. But as most people have said, if you choose a reputable sp, this is an extremely unlikely scenario. If on reflection you honestly believe you were the victim of a scam, you always have the option of posting about a Bait and Switch. If however on reflection you believe it was a misunderstanding, learn from it and communicate clearer up front in future.

 

If you've paid extra for a service such as Greek, and through no fault of yours, the sp cannot provide it in your session, Cleo's suggestion of refunding that portion or agreeing to put it towards your next session is a very reasonable and ethical option. Once again, the foundation for these solutions is effective communication.

 

There are a couple of points that I would like to comment on despite the fact the I really enjoyed reading your post as it seems to be balanced:

 

The contract, in my view, is more than an oral contract especially with providers who operate their own website, or explicitly advertise certain services through advertising sites without leaving the room to maneuver. In the hi-tech era, I am afraid that text messages, emails and recorded phone calls are sufficient for those who would like to pursue their case vigorously.

 

The "meeting of the minds" according to my understanding is what to be perceived as a reasonable expectation to both parties. I never intended to go in such a depth, but when a client goes to see a provider and pays hundreds of dollar, the reasonable expectation is that he will receive some sexual services in return and not merely sit on a couch to watch Tom and Jerry. Now, the nature of those services varies from one provider to another and therefore the obligations of the providers vary accordingly.

 

The argument that YMMV is a card that is at the back mind of both parties is unfortunate and not convincing at the same time when the provider explicitly describes a menu of services for a certain rate or agrees explicitly to provide certain services during the session upon inquiry.

 

If it is a YMMV, then there is nothing that would prevent the provider from carefully drafting her website or private communications to bring that card to the attention of the client. To say the opposite, we are setting the standards of sexual providers in Canada overall to a gambling model an I am not sure if this is in the best interest of this business over the long run.

 

Last, as a general comment (not to Cyclo's post), I can recognize some dissatisfaction from the word "Contract". While this is a matter of semantics which could be replaced, I would like to mention that the most prestigious professions are premised on a contract. Moreover, when we as providers seek recognition and decriminalization, we should also be held accountable to people. To get the high premiums and hide behind a YMMV card as the "non-spelled" standard, we are definitely hurting this business on long run!

[withpassion 914]

I've refused greek. Twice. There really was no 'good reason' for it, besides that as soon as we began, it HURT.

 

For one, I returned the greek premium. The other, I kept it for a future session.

 

But that is exactly the point. You compensated for it. No one has ever said that you must "grit your teeth" it is only about a fair exchange. You have trouble seeing the point because, obviously, you are fair and reasonable in your dealings and it's difficult to imagine otherwise.

[Cleo Catra 178382]

But that is exactly the point. You compensated for it. No one has ever said that you must "grit your teeth" it is only about a fair exchange. You have trouble seeing the point because, obviously, you are fair and reasonable in your dealings and it's difficult to imagine otherwise.

 

I think you're right, and I think that's why a lot of us go in circles in these discussions on here. In most cases, it seems like the women participating are not the ones the clients are talking about.... so the points never seem to get resolved, because the ladies can't seem to offer resolutions to situations they can't imagine happening.

[mrgreen760 37785]

I think you're right, and I think that's why a lot of us go in circles in these discussions on here. In most cases, it seems like the women participating are not the ones the clients are talking about.... so the points never seem to get resolved, because the ladies can't seem to offer resolutions to situations they can't imagine happening.

 

True! These discussions take place amongst a microcosm of CERB members which represents a micro microcosm of the sex trade generally. Sort of like preaching to the choir.

 

Peace

MG

[mooophil 181]

That's the thing: the clients and providers discussing this are very unlikely to be the problematic ones.

 

The issue is that the "good" SPs have to deal with some awful clients, and conversely, "good" clients have to deal with some crooked SPs. At both ends, it's a discussion that involves the wrong audience (and it's likely the audience that should be reading this doesn't give a sh.....)

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

True! These discussions take place amongst a microcosm of CERB members which represents a micro microcosm of the sex trade generally. Sort of like preaching to the choir.

 

Peace

MG

 

So, it turned out to be sex trade at the end ;)

[cyclo 30131]

Originally Posted by Cleo Catra

I think you're right, and I think that's why a lot of us go in circles in these discussions on here. In most cases, it seems like the women participating are not the ones the clients are talking about.... so the points never seem to get resolved, because the ladies can't seem to offer resolutions to situations they can't imagine happening.

 

 

True! These discussions take place amongst a microcosm of CERB members which represents a micro microcosm of the sex trade generally. Sort of like preaching to the choir.

 

I think these discussions can be worthwhile. They can be frustrating... if you think a consensus is going to be reached or... if you think you're going to change a participant's point if view. (The internet is not the place for that lol)

 

This particular thread has had over 7,000 views. That's far more than any other current topic. Obviously there's interest, even if only a small minority of members participate. And even if cerb only represents a small percentage of all sp's and clients, it's still our community and we're developing norms of behaviour and conduct in an underground economy/activity where it's difficult to get useful, real, respectful, healthy etc information.

 

I look at these discussions as being similar to any public debate. The point isn't to change the mind of the other debater(s). It's to be persuasive to the audience and provoke them into thinking. This is best done when different points of view are expressed and hopefully expressed well. Hopefully these discussions are also an opportunity to share information and viewpoints that readers would not otherwise have access to, whether that's factual information, personal experience or a different perspective.