rsmm 110 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 I recently heard that a handful of spas in Ontario, including Ottawa, are licenced such that they are able to legally provide MA services (i.e., happy endings but not full service). It seems too good to be true - has anyone else heard of this? If it is the case, which spas? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 I am not sure where you got your information, but every municipality has different regulations and by-laws. That is the law of the land. Those by-laws effect the provider, not the customer. Given your posting history I am not sure where this query is coming from, nor the motivation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VibeUrbanSpa 4817 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 No one in Ottawa, MA or MP is licensed to give "happy-endings". A City License for "happy-endings" does not exist. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rsmm 110 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 I heard about the supposed licences from a registered massage therapist I visited. I guess she was yanking my chain (metaphorically speaking, unfortunately). I knew it sounded too good to be true. Thanks for the replies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 Actually the city of Ottawa Body rub license does not prohibit "happy endings", at least the one I read online. It does specify that the attendant must stay clothed at all timesand a few other things concerning hygiene, but it has no specific wording on what can and cannot be "rubbed". I looked at other jurisdictions in Ontario like Mississauga and Pickering, and their regs have specific prohibitions on massaging, buttocks, genitals and breasts, no digits, no oral, no ejaculation. Those words are not on the Body Rub regulations posted on the city of Ottawa website. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALO DOWNTOWN 1148 Report post Posted January 4, 2014 ALO is the only chain of massage studios with a proper body rub licensing other spas operate with a master business license that means they are not entitled to provide body rub services. When a body rub parlor has the proper license covers all the staff working at the premises. As opposite to a spa where only the person that has a massage certificate is able to provide it. some cities like Toronto offer the benefit to get individual body rub licenses, for each attendant. In our case this explain why we had stayed at same location, because licenses are grandfathered to specific address and directors what it makes not transferable. There will be spas operating as parlors but more susceptible to be target by the city of Ottawa or by law services. There has been many cases like Inner image closed by city amazing location and facilities, just to mention one of the cases. you can always find more info on by law services http://www.lunamassagespa.com 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 5, 2014 Municipalities will not only be able to zone and license them, they'll be required to. While they can regulate a legal activity, they can't prohibit it. This is probably not the best place to bring it up, but it is germane to the discussion. You are right they cannot prohibit the activity, hence why a city cannot ban strip clubs. They have to allow at least one. But that is all they have to allow. So in the city of Ottawa, for example, there are several licensed strip clubs, but they are grandfathered from before the regulations came into effect. If you applied for a license today they would turn you down, no questions asked. So even if brothels become legal, you could see cities allowing only one, and then regulating them heavily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
khk94 110 Report post Posted January 5, 2014 Just out of curiosity, is there any Spa/massage parlor that strictly offers "erotic" services only and no "sexual" services? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 5, 2014 Just out of curiosity, is there any Spa/massage parlor that strictly offers "erotic" services only and no "sexual" services? Any of them. Just specify that is what you want. I am sure they will be happy to oblige. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waterat 20911 Report post Posted January 5, 2014 Just out of curiosity, is there any Spa/massage parlor that strictly offers "erotic" services only and no "sexual" services? I imagine common sense dictates that they only 'advertise' as providing "erotic" services but in reality I don't believe that not providing at least some sexual services is a viable business model. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclo 30131 Report post Posted January 7, 2014 You are right they cannot prohibit the activity, hence why a city cannot ban strip clubs. They have to allow at least one. But that is all they have to allow... So even if brothels become legal, you could see cities allowing only one, and then regulating them heavily. Municipalities can regulate "categories or types" of businesses but they can't regulate the "number" of businesses in any category. They can regulate where a business locates through zoning and they can regulate some operational issues through licenses. Municipalities don't have the authority to regulate commercial competition by limiting the number of businesses. They certainly don't have the authority to grant a monopoly by eliminating all competition and specifically allowing only one business to operate in a category. The establishment of Adult Entertainment uses (strip clubs, massage parlours etc) is often controversial. Even in this category of use I'm not aware of any legislation which allows a municipality to only allow one business. The criteria for locating an Adult Entertainment business can make it difficult to find an acceptable site, but not impossible. If you meet the criteria, you get your permit/license. If municipal staff or council refuse the permit/license every province has an appeal board that can overturn the municipality's decision. If you can identify the authority to only allow one strip club for example in a municipality, I'd be interested in reading it. Here's a short article in the Ottawa Sun which provides an example of the locational criteria for an Adult Entertainment use in Ottawa. I'm sure there's more to it than what the newspaper identifies. http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/12/20/brothel-ruling-might-mean-new-city-of-ottawa-zoning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) The municipalities do have the right to limit the number of licenses. When the whole strip club licensing issue arose in Ontario a lot of cities thought they could get rid of all SC's by not issuing licenses, and not grandfathering existing establishments. This was challenged in court and cities were told they could not outright "ban" the businesses, but they could limit the number of licenses. They had to allow at least one. So most cities allowed only one if there were not already clubs grandfathered. All the current licenses in Ottawa for example are for establishments that existed before these regulations came in, or were in other municipalities before amalgamation. If you went to city hall right now and tried to get another Adult entertainment license they would not issue you one, even if you met all the ridiculous criteria they put in place. I will try and find where this came from, but it goes back 10-15 years at least, so it may be hard to find. But my memory is pretty good on this issue and I think others will remember it as well. (Edit, I found reference in a Hamilton Ontario paper that I am wrong, the lower limit that is in Ontario Legislation is two, not one as I said. Therefore they have to allow up to two SC's as long as they conform to other zoning guidelines.) Edited January 7, 2014 by canuckhooker found some references. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclo 30131 Report post Posted January 8, 2014 The municipalities do have the right to limit the number of licenses... They had to allow at least one. So most cities allowed only one if there were not already clubs grandfathered... (Edit, I found reference in a Hamilton Ontario paper that I am wrong, the lower limit that is in Ontario Legislation is two, not one as I said. Therefore they have to allow up to two SC's as long as they conform to other zoning guidelines.) In Ontario, the Ontario Municipal Act is the legislation which enables municipalities to license Adult Entertainment establishment. It states: Restrictions re adult entertainment establishments 154. (1) ... a local municipality, in a by-law... with respect to adult entertainment establishments, may, (a) ... define the area of the municipality in which adult entertainment establishments may or may not operate and limit the number of adult entertainment establishments in any defined area in which they are permitted The legislation doesn't indicate that a municipality can limit the number of licenses throughout the entire municipality to either one or two. The legislation in effect allows municipalities to regulate the "concentration or density" of adult entertainment businesses in a "defined area". This allows municipalities to prevent adult entertainment businesses from congregating together in an area. The fear is that if you get too many adult entertainment uses close together in an area, that they will alter the area's commercial character and a red light or quasi red light district will be established. It's quite possible that politicians and the media have understood the legislation allows a municipality to place a total limit on the number of adult entertainment establishments throughout the entire municipality. It's also possible that in small municipalities this could occur simply because of the fact that they only have one or two small commercial or industrial areas and those are the "defined area" in which adult entertainment establishments are allowed. Aside from the specifics of this discussion, the point I'm really trying to make is that "others" (politicians, media, abolitionists, police, religions etc) have consistently defined the discussion/debate about sex work. One of the ways they do this is by establishing their interpretation of various laws/legislation as the dominant view. Nobody questions it or goes back to check the facts or read the original legislation/laws. We should question the accuracy of anything we've accepted to date as correct. Even though most of us are not going to "out" ourselves to others, it allows us to speak more knowledgeably with informed views when these topics come up for discussion with friends or at work. After the recent Supreme Court decision I think more "average" people are interested in hearing informed opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jabba 18389 Report post Posted January 8, 2014 ALO is the only chain of massage studios with a proper body rub licensing other spas operate with a master business license that means they are not entitled to provide body rub services. When a body rub parlor has the proper license covers all the staff working at the premises. As opposite to a spa where only the person that has a massage certificate is able to provide it. some cities like Toronto offer the benefit to get individual body rub licenses, for each attendant. In our case this explain why we had stayed at same location, because licenses are grandfathered to specific address and directors what it makes not transferable. There will be spas operating as parlors but more susceptible to be target by the city of Ottawa or by law services. There has been many cases like Inner image closed by city amazing location and facilities, just to mention one of the cases. you can always find more info on by law services www.lunamassagespa.com I don't understand anything in this post. Can you please clarify? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canuckhooker 19202 Report post Posted January 8, 2014 In Ontario, the Ontario Municipal Act is the legislation which enables municipalities to license Adult Entertainment establishment. It states: Restrictions re adult entertainment establishments 154. (1) ... a local municipality, in a by-law... with respect to adult entertainment establishments, may, (a) ... define the area of the municipality in which adult entertainment establishments may or may not operate and limit the number of adult entertainment establishments in any defined area in which they are permitted The legislation doesn't indicate that a municipality can limit the number of licenses throughout the entire municipality to either one or two. Again I will respectfully disagree. Your own quote contradicts your assertion. The act allows the municipality to define the area and LIMIT THE NUMBER. I haven't got the time nor the inclination to go back over 10 years to find the court cases that interpreted that, and laid out the principle that by-laws could regulate, but not outright prohibit. I did find the reference from a case in Hamilton, where the upper limit was set at two licenses for the municipality and the number was not to exceed that. It is City of Hamilton bylaw 07-170 if you wish to look it up. You can then search and see several cases where that was challenged. The appellant in one case did get a license in addition to the two allowed, but that was not because the city didn't have the right to limit the number. The appeal was allowed because the city didn't follow its own guidelines and procedures and revoked a license in a manner that adversely and unfairly treated the person who was issued the license. This limit on the number was not as the result of something stated in the legislation, it was as a result of appeals of city by-laws and the concept that they can regulate and limit, but not prohibit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cyclo 30131 Report post Posted January 9, 2014 Again I will respectfully disagree. Your own quote contradicts your assertion. The act allows the municipality to define the area and LIMIT THE NUMBER... This limit on the number was not as the result of something stated in the legislation, it was as a result of appeals of city by-laws and the concept that they can regulate and limit, but not prohibit. Hi Canuck. I agree with you that Ontario municipality's can limit the number of adult entertainment establishments and also that they can't prohibit them. In my last post I was just trying to make a point about where and how that authority comes from the Province and how it can be used by the municipality. It's a subtle difference between limiting the number throughout the entire municipality and limiting the number "in any defined area in which they are permitted." While I was writing my last post, I wasn't sure whether I was making my point clearly or if it was even a worthwhile point to make. I think the answer to both questions is in... And the answer to both is "no" lol Have a good evening and thanks for your fair minded and even tempered replies. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
