hate crimes against sex workers......

[Grass_Hopper 18263]

MOD,

I think this thread should be moved in "In the news" area since it's very pertinent information for all of us...

[mod 135639]

Not sure about that. Usually the news area is for published media articles pertaining to the industry. I think this was posted for reference and open discussion.

[bylogger 136]

The types of behaviour you have described certainly follow the pattern of hate crimes. Sadly, it is difficult to get protection for the victim when the societal attitude is actively (or passively) against the victim.

 

Politicians, some of whom may use the services of sex workers, need to be seen as squeaky clean by the public. Protecting sex workers is often considered political suicide.

 

The more exposure the industry generates, the more "normalized" will be the practice, and the more protection it will recieve. But also with more exposure will come more attacks. Definitely hate crimes.

[Susie 1472]

another article from the charter;

 

Article 23

 

1. everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorible conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
   
2. everyone, without discrimination has the right to equal pay for equal work.
   
3. everyone who works is entitled to just and favorible renumeration ensuring for himself and his family an existance worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection
   
4. everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
   

[Labrador 248]

Susie,

 

Thanks for all the great info. Please keep bringing it to us.

[JoyfulC 132299]

There's a big difference between being a sex worker and being a streetwalker. Think of it this way: marital sex is not only legal, but thought to be healthy and encouraged. But married couples are NOT encouraged to flaunt it in public. It would be just as illegal for me to give my husband a blowjob in a side alley as it would be for a streetwalker to do so. It's about respect for everybody else.

 

The trouble is that the general public sees sex work as a form of business -- and so they expect sex workers to do like any other business does and pay for their own overhead. Preferably in appropriate locations. And when you think about it, this is reasonable. Look at people's reaction to spammers in email and internet forums -- some get pretty ugly about it!

 

It's not right for people to act out against streetwalkers in violent ways, of course -- but it should be remembered that the streetwalkers are flying in the face of the public's rights in the first place. I am a prostitute and I've lived in or close to red light districts -- I didn't like it!

 

I don't think ANYBODY should have the right to walk all over everyone else's rights to turn the streets into their business venue -- not if it were dental hygienists, not if it were lawyers, not if it were real estate agents. If people want to be in business, they should pay the price to get themselves set up.

 

Incall is not technically legal in Canada, but for whatever reason, a blind eye is turned to it in many areas. I don't agree with that, and I resent having had to compete on that plane -- but still, the blind eye has its limits. If the neighbours become too aware that something is going on, they still have the right to complain to LE and get something done about it. And that's as it should be because residential neighbourhoods don't exist for the purpose of prostitutes (or welders or textile mills, for that matter) making money, but for the purpose of people living in, families growing up in.

 

We are extremely fortunate here in Canada that prostitution is legal, and we are able to work on an outcall basis, completely legally. If someone wants to push the limits of that, to do incall or even to solicit in public places, then all I can say is that they'd be extremely foolish not to be so discreet that they'd never offend anyone's sensibilities. And that's damned hard to do as a streetwalker.

 

I have often been criticized for my anti-streetwalking stance -- but really, it's as much out of concern for the women who put themselves out there as it is for the communities they damage with their selfish acts. To me, streetwalking makes about as much sense as skydiving without a reserve parachute. Sure, I made probably well over 2500 jumps and only needed my own reserve on a main that I packed once -- but I was damned happy to have it the one time I needed it. Streetwalkers take enormous personal risks, and the overwhelming majority of sex workers murdered in North America are streetwalkers.

 

I haven't had much contact with streetwalkers in recent years, but back in the 70s, my roommate was the Mother Theresa of streetwalkers. She thought she could save them. When she'd find one bruised and battered by her pimp or some john, she'd bring them home to our place and try to help them. She'd explain to them how they could work more safely, with more dignity and actually make more money than they were making on the streets! We'd give them clothes, feed them, sober them up, and every single time, they went running back to the streets. And too often, they'd betray us to their pimps after they left, and we'd come home to find our place ransacked and robbed.

 

It's a conundrum. Just like we don't fully understand the reason that some people are homeless, despite so many programs and outreach efforts, we'll probably never understand why some women and children turn to the streets.

 

But what's more important, in my mind, is why the johns are there. There are certainly safer and more discreet options for them. The fact that they turn to the streets, to me, is telling -- it says that they want women at the mercy of their own desperation and low self-esteem. Women for whom a small amount of money is worth risking their lives and the scorn of society. That seems ugly to me, and I really don't understand why society is so easy on them. Dry up the market and you'll do a lot more to solve the street problem than you ever will by stigmatizing the lost souls out there risking it all on the streets. But until we get serious about severe penalties for the johns, we have no hope of solving the problem.

 

One thing I do think might help is if organizations committed to helping women/children on the streets would offer them sound advice regarding how to work legitimately in sex work in Canada, rather than to try to save them from sex work altogether. The problem isn't that they're sex workers. The problem is that they're on the street.

[Elle 1961]

One thing I do think might help is if organizations committed to helping women/children on the streets would offer them sound advice regarding how to work legitimately in sex work in Canada, rather than to try to save them from sex work altogether. The problem isn't that they're sex workers. The problem is that they're on the street.

 

Agreed. There already are harm reduction programs in most cities, so this isn't a far fetched idea. Hypothetically, if you were starting that sort of education program, how would you go about it? What would you include ?

How would you advise them to work? Indoors? Outcall? MP?

[JoyfulC 132299]

Agreed. There already are harm reduction programs in most cities, so this isn't a far fetched idea. Hypothetically, if you were starting that sort of education program, how would you go about it? What would you include ?

How would you advise them to work? Indoors? Outcall? MP?

 

That's the tough thing. If it was done officially, they'd have to be counseled to work outcall -- but that would certainly be better than working on the street. If Canadian SPs could get involved in providing consultation off the record, they might be able to consult on more practical avenues -- although I don't think any govt. sanctioned agency could go with that. The fact is that the laws in Canada tend to be broad to allow LE much surer enforcement capabilities in the case of a problem. For example: the "living off the avails" laws -- technically, an infant child of a sex worker would be guilty under the letter of the law -- or the husband of a sex worker. But that's not the purpose of the law. Many children in Canada rely on their mothers for financial support, and many husbands rely on their wives for the same. The purpose of the law isn't to support sexism. But the law needs to be broad to be able to thwart the "loopholes" of those men who truly do exploit sex workers, else they'd hide behind more conventional models. We're talking the kind of guys who pick up runaways at the bus station, lure them in and then confine them, forcing them to submit to that which they never intended to do.

 

I think WE know more about this whole world and are better able to advise young people. Would they listen? That's the tough question. But I think we probably have more credibility than anyone else.

[Susie 1472]

we are almost completed our project to design occupational health and safety training for the sex industry- trade secrets- funded by vancouver coastal health-government- it is nationally viable as i created a resource list that extends from corner brook to yellow knife!!!lol

 

as soon as it's availible i will share with you all and people can use it for localized orgainizing. also, we have made great head way in vancouver as fae as plice and government are concernned and if anyone would like copies of what we did and how we did it, i would be happy to share that too. just pm me your e-mail.

 

check out stella's web site chezstella.org -look for the XXX guide, very similar to what is being suggested.....

[Elle 1961]

Once again, I agree with you. Other workers are likely the best to advise those in the same industry. But with how vague our laws are, a sex worker advising another could be violating laws on procuring. Aside from that, what works for us, isn't necessarily going to work for them.

 

I don't believe that outcalls are really even a viable option to a lot of street workers though at this time its really the only legal route to go in Canada. A lot of street workers are on the street because they do not have the ability to keep up with the day to day tasks of living. Being an outcall provider, includes tasks like making sure their cell phone bill is paid, their ads are up and that they have transportation to and from their calls. For someone with addictions, mental health issues or learning disabilities, its a lot to expect.

 

I don't like the idea of decriminalizing brothels either. Even now, MPs are notorious for abusing the rights of workers on a regular basis. And girls off the street generally do not last very long at these establishments either. Showing up for a shift on time and sober is often beyond their capabilities.

 

Working the streets as a sex worker isnt much different than panhandling, in someways. No one tells them when they have to show up, how long they have to stay or when they should leave. They work until they have enough money for what they need or until there's no more traffic. Both groups are generally regarded as a nuisance and undesirable, particularly in residential areas and historically have been outlawed, by-lawed or restricted to certain areas.

 

Perhaps there is a segment of the population of sex workers who could be counselled into working in a more responsible manner, but are they accessible? There are many young girls who do make enough money to keep a cell phone paid and afford nice clothes etc, but many of those are under the control of gangs and/or pimps. And the pimp certainly isnt going to let her get advice from a seasoned SP, because he knows the first thing we'll tell her to do is to dump his useless butt.

[Elle 1961]

we are almost completed our project to design occupational health and safety training for the sex industry- trade secrets- funded by vancouver coastal health-government- it is nationally viable as i created a resource list that extends from corner brook to yellow knife!!!lol

 

as soon as it's availible i will share with you all and people can use it for localized orgainizing. also, we have made great head way in vancouver as fae as plice and government are concernned and if anyone would like copies of what we did and how we did it, i would be happy to share that too. just pm me your e-mail.

 

check out stella's web site chezstella.org -look for the XXX guide, very similar to what is being suggested.....

 

That'd be great. Check your PM's for my email address shortly. I certainly am interested in seeing what other SPs have come up with and seeing if it would be a viable option to organize something of the same here.

[VedaSloan 119179]

we are almost completed our project to design occupational health and safety training for the sex industry- trade secrets- funded by vancouver coastal health-government- it is nationally viable as i created a resource list that extends from corner brook to yellow knife!!!lol

 

as soon as it's availible i will share with you all and people can use it for localized orgainizing. also, we have made great head way in vancouver as fae as plice and government are concernned and if anyone would like copies of what we did and how we did it, i would be happy to share that too. just pm me your e-mail.

 

check out stella's web site chezstella.org -look for the XXX guide, very similar to what is being suggested.....

 

Stella's XXX guide is amazing! You can email them and ask for it and they will send it to you for free if you are a sex worker.

 

It outlines the law and how it affects you, as well as talks about how to work safely, what to look for in an STD check, etc

[JoyfulC 132299]

I do think that sex workers are the best suited to counsel streetwalkers to get off the streets.

 

But that said, having been involved in some of this, I'll note that the success rate was still abysmal -- especially in the case of pimped streetwalkers. Some streetwalkers I've encountered in the past (and I'll admit it's been 30 years or so) didn't identify themselves as sex workers! They just needed money and this was how they could get it. But they didn't view themselves as sex workers the way that most SPs here do, and can be offended at the suggestion that they look at it like a business. After all, that would make them prostitutes.

 

The pimped women are more complicated because there's a (highly dysfunctional!) relationship going on there, and layered below that, I believe a dysfunction somewhere in their backgrounds that makes this type of relationship seem appropriate -- perhaps even comfortably familiar.

 

I still think the most effective solution is to for the law to come down hard on the john side of things.

[etasman2000 15994]

But what's more important, in my mind, is why the johns are there.

 

You forgot cost. SW are considered a 'cheaper' option to visiting a SP.

 

[i'm in no way defending the actions of these men only to state this dimension was missing.]

 

The question of incall is trickier. You brought up the issue of incalls within residential areas, what if it is a hotel ? A private condominium ?

 

Some other business are ran out of homes, e.g. registered massage therapist, naturopath, lawyers, accountants, with the associated traffic volumes. Should these be targeted as well ?

[JoyfulC 132299]

You forgot cost. SW are considered a 'cheaper' option to visiting a SP.

 

So I suppose it would only take one $5000 fine to eliminate that advantage, eh? ;)

 

But I don't really think cost is all of it. I think there are many reasons men turn to the streets -- some of them perhaps innocent enough (I've had some guys tell me they thought it was safer, and others say that they thought it was the most common way to engage a sex worker), and others perhaps not so innocent (men who prefer to deal with women who are desperate and well below them in terms of social status, or men who have a contempt for society). I still think getting tough with penalties would encourage a majority to choose other options.

 

The question of incall is trickier. You brought up the issue of incalls within residential areas, what if it is a hotel ? A private condominium ?

 

Some other business are ran out of homes, e.g. registered massage therapist, naturopath, lawyers, accountants, with the associated traffic volumes. Should these be targeted as well ?

 

That's a good point! But again, it comes back to the argument that neighbourhoods exist for the purpose of people living there and raising their children there. Any business that interferes with the primary purpose of a neighbourhood is undesirable, in my view.

 

I think we have a system in Canada where the laws are much tougher than the enforcement in many cases, perhaps to give law enforcement the teeth to deal with problems in a hurry. In most places I've lived or worked from, my neighbours appeared to be clueless as to the nature of my business, and appear to identify me (and my husband) as people to be trusted. We've had neighbours give us their keys to take care of their pets and plants while they're away (even if they're several doors down), tell their children to come to us if there's a problem (and that's happened), come to us when they've lost a pet (my husband is legendary for finding lost pets), and coming to us with various computer or household problems or for advice on legal/government matters. Friday night, our meal consisted in part of some beans our neighbours shared with us. So I guess we must be conducting ourselves in such a way that we're not viewed as any threat or problem in the neighbourhood.

 

But not all incalls are so. I've heard stories of a half dozen (and in some cases many times more) customers coming and going from incall locations, of inappropriately dressed women coming and going, cars parking illegally, fights breaking out and the police being called, and men propositioning other women in the vicinity. There's no place for any of this in a neighbourhood, and at least in the case of prostitution, law enforcement has the teeth to shut it down fairly quickly. Certainly, if accountants or lawyers or naturopaths were introducing similar conditions into a neighbourhood, it might be tougher to get it shut down -- but no less desirable!

 

What would be the difference between a private condominium and a house or apartment? It's still residential. Hotels are fair game up to a point, as our businesses are mutually beneficial. But too, a hotel can toss any guest out for being disruptive.

 

I never liked incall for first time meetings because, while my instincts are pretty good, nobody's instincts are perfect all the time. If there's a problem, I'd rather have it be on his turf (with someone knowing where I am and when I should be back) than on my turf after the door's closed. I do incall because it's pretty much industry standard. But I still think it's safest, from both physical and legal standpoints, to see someone at his place or hotel room at least one time before inviting him to visit me.

[Guest s******ecan****]

JoyfulC

 

I enjoyed reading all of your extremely well thought out posts in this thread. Thanks for sharing.

[pjrd 324]

as far as violence and abuse goes, do the ladies have much of a problem with that during in/outcalls or at the MPS ? I am only assuming that it`s like night and day as opposed to street walkers.

[fortunateone 156618]

as far as violence and abuse goes, do the ladies have much of a problem with that during in/outcalls or at the MPS ? I am only assuming that it`s like night and day as opposed to street walkers.

 

I would have to agree. Doing incalls only, not at any mps, but private, I have not had any bad experiences in over 8 years, and I see many many people a month (it may have more impact if I say that I do currently have over 70 visitors a month, some repeating of course; but the emphasis is not one problem) However, I personally screen all visitors, unlike an mp or agency where they send in anyone, whether it is a good or a bad match, the sp is expected to do her best. One young sp in Edmonton's "best" was to be killed by the client in an outcall, inspite of the driver being close by. Another young sp's "best" was being sent by her agency to one of her brother's room-mates, because they refuse to give these escorts any information about the people they are being sent to.

 

Some of the SWs may actually better street smarts that those who work indoors, altho their risks seem greater. Many work around other SWs, whereas some new indoor sps may just place an ad and have no clue about how to keep herself safe. And an indoor worker can get the same disrespect and violence as any SW simply by advertising "no restrictions" and lower than standard rates.

 

I obviously don't really have a point here, but maybe we should also remember that there are other workers who have risks, like hospital workers can get attacked violently, and so on.

[CourtesanCassandra 167]

I never liked incall for first time meetings because, while my instincts are pretty good, nobody's instincts are perfect all the time. If there's a problem, I'd rather have it be on his turf (with someone knowing where I am and when I should be back) than on my turf after the door's closed. I do incall because it's pretty much industry standard. But I still think it's safest, from both physical and legal standpoints, to see someone at his place or hotel room at least one time before inviting him to visit me.

 

I feel the same way about the incall situation. I've never entertained the idea of having a complete stranger in my home before we've set up a meeting or I've seen them a few times. There is also the risk of inviting the wrong person to your home & having them possibly stalk or harass you at your place of residence.

 

As for meeting them on their turf, I know of a gal that will phone her safety contact infront of the client, letting them know she is there & should be done at such & such a time. She also has set up precautions that, for example, she calls her safety contact & doesn't use the right name, or talks in code, that the safety contact knows to call police.

[CourtesanCassandra 167]

I'm having issues with my touch pad mouse & accidentaly nominated one of your posts, Elle. Not that that's a bad thing, heh. Gawd I hate these touch pad mouse things....:-?

[pjrd 324]

As for meeting them on their turf, I know of a gal that will phone her safety contact infront of the client, letting them know she is there & should be done at such & such a time. She also has set up precautions that, for example, she calls her safety contact & doesn't use the right name, or talks in code, that the safety contact knows to call police.

don`t all the agencies work this way for the ladies safety? I guess a few of them don`t care about the girls but I think that it would be priority number one to protect their employees. everyone should have a safety contact.

do pimps add some sort of safety net for street walkers or are the girls completely on their own?

is there a big difference between a pimp and an escort agency other than the legalities?

pj

[CourtesanCassandra 167]

don`t all the agencies work this way for the ladies safety? I guess a few of them don`t care about the girls but I think that it would be priority number one to protect their employees. everyone should have a safety contact.

 

Well the gal I'd mentioned works independently, but I'm pretty sure she has a few folks that do cover her back.

 

Unfortunately, there are some pretty horrendous agencies out there that don't care for the lady's safety, only the cash they generate & they take advantage.

 

is there a big difference between a pimp and an escort agency other than the legalities?

 

If it's a good agency, I'm thinking yes. Speaking for myself, I've worked with a lovely woman who runs an escort agency. The ladies safety is definitely a big priority. If there is a shady client, & any of the gals are mistreated, he's asked not to do business again with them.