A bbbj talk.

[crankF 12893]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you'd prefer BBFS over BBBJ, since you can only contract gonorrhea through intercourse? Of course herpes can also be contracted through intercourse, and blowjobs, so two more chances of contracting that.

Not trying to make any sort of statement at all on bare or covered anything. Gon. and Herp. are both treatable, gon. can be gotten rid of. herpes is with you forever, dormant if you are lucky. Just saying.

[canuckhooker 19202]

Well I take pity on my fellow CERB-ites and only post this on one of the three threads.

 

This argument is getting tiresome, and not just this particular time. It seems we keep going down the same path, having the same arguments over and over again. I just spent about 2 minutes with this wonderful feature we have on this site called "search" (something that some of you should seriously try using some time) and here are just four threads of many on the topic.

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71451&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34872&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20951&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16380&highlight=transmission

 

This time though we have three active threads with the same people posting on all three of them, and rarely providing any new information and insight that is not already on this board. First someone hijacked a thread on BBFS to rant about the perils of BBBJ. Then an SP put up a poll with a set of questions that although well-meaning just made things more complicated. Believe it or not folks there is a science to writing polls to gather data properly. Then a hobbiest in attempt to clarify things posted an SP only poll with the same sort of problematic questions. The we have people cross-posting links irrelevant to the discussion on multiple threads. A serious breach of netiquette on any board.

 

What angers me the most is that these arguments are not being made in the interest of health and safety, they are being made because some people feel they have an economic interest at stake. Case in point, an SP on here last night posting about how she felt that to keep her financial well being she had to offer BBBJ.

 

The word being thrown around is coercion, which is pretty strong. It generally implies some sort of duress being applied. I don't think that a hobbiest choosing to see an SP who does BBBJ instead of CBJ is really duress. Particularly since the anecdotal evidence on these threads is that for the vast majority of the hobbiests it has no bearing.

 

I am not going searching for facts, and transmission rates as someone on here has suggested. There is no need. A lot of what we do in this hobby has risks. Condoms are not 100% effective. I am not going to cite the failure rate here and have people shoot at my statistics, look it up. The point is that they break, slip off, and do not prevent all diseases, particularly herpes, warts and even HPV. (and I could add non-STI infections as well)

 

And if you are going to look it up then Wikipedia and Ask.com may be a good place to start, but do us all a favour and try and find some primary sources. Dig deeper, and look at several sources, because there are a lot of different facts and statistics out there depending on who is presenting them. A lot of people on the internet have their own agenda. (surprise surprise)

 

The fact of the matter is that this hobby is full of risks, and not just from STI's. The only safe way to avoid these risks is not to have sex or contact with another human at all. I don't think many of us would want to do that.

 

How a person handles these risks, mitigates them, protects themselves and their partners is what is important. Is there a risk with BBBJ, yes there is. But there is also a demand for it, and not just from the hobbiests. I know many SP's who really don't like sucking on a latex condom. That is their choice. They know the risks.

 

Is BBBJ the only risky thing we do in this hobby? Not by a long shot.

 

My final word is this. Wanting to have a BBBJ or a CBJ is a personal choice. Wanting to provide either is also a personal choice. If you choose not to provide that service then live with your decision. If someone else makes a different choice it is none of your business. You can say it is coercion, but I would also say that trying to use peer-pressure on a board like this to try and convince your competition to do something different is also coercion.

 

To the mod(s) as I have shown here we have debated this thread ad nauseum over the years, and nothing really new has been added to the mix. We now have 3 similar threads. Can we at least merge them, if you are not going to lock them?

[PistolPete 61421]

Thanks for the research and using the search button CH. As I said the same earlier, this topic comes up every year,it is about choice, we are all grown adults playing in a adult play ground, make your own wise choice and stick with it. I remember years back the word used was "fear mongering" now we are using "coercion"and "pressured" I think everyone should take a deep breath, step back, and just read the many posts and threads about BBBJ and make/draw your own conclusions and choices.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

CH, I did do my research and found the same info in several different links. Are you suggesting the links I provided are misleading? I picked these two links out of many that I have read and cross checked. I have even gone to the extent of contacting our sexual health center in my town, and they also confirmed my information was correct. So to make this sound as if I did not do my homework, is incorrect.

 

Yes I do encourage everyone to do their own cross reference with something so serious as this topic.

And when in doubt...contact a health professional.

 

I am out of this conversation now. I do not think Peachy's intention was to create such an overblown topic, she was looking for input and opinions from her community. I have said all that I want to on this.

[Guest]

CH, I can see why you would think a conversation like this could be tiresome. It's not exactly a conversation about roses and lilies.

 

I can also see why you would think that people are trying to fear others into providing cbj's. However, the way I see it is that the argument has been going both ways. I think that both sides of the argument have strong points or facts to back them up.

 

I think that in every section there should be a friendly std fact thread sticky or a sticky that has links of std threas. Not to scare members of cerb but merely to inform others of the risks involved in this hobby, if they don't already know. It is important to inform yourself of the risks involved. I disagree with scare tactics, however, these are scary topics to begin with. I think people want to inform and help others but come off as judgmental and that they disagree about what others are doing in this community, mainly bbbj. I think it's important to focus on the facts when it comes to sharing std stats.

 

I think the reason why these type or types of conversations keep popping up in the community is because it is important to all of us. I mean no escort wants to stop her business because she caught something or no one wants to bring a nasty bug home. I think things start with good intentions and sometimes turn into something else. We need to look inwards, about why we can't have a normal adult conversation without tearing each other apart because we disagree with a particular topic.

 

I see nothing wrong with having a conversation about bbbj's and cbj's. I see nothing wrong with being curious and wanting to know how this community feels about certain topics. I see nothing wrong with posting a poll about this and that's why I posted this. I also see nothing wrong with the other poll whiteman posted either and I don't see anything wrong with answering answers honestly.

 

I do agree that each of us have a personal choice to make. It is up to each of us to decide what we feel comfortable with and it is none of our business of what the next person is doing. It is not up to us, me or the next person to tell people what to do because in the end people will do what they want anyway.

 

I guess the easiest thing to do if you don't like a thread or post is to ignore it and move on to something that makes you happier. I mean you can't tell people what they can or can't post either.

[SamanthaEvans 166766]

I will pull this one unscientifically from my butt. If I must choose between gonorrhea and herpes, I'll take the former because when properly treated GONorrhea is GONe, whereas HERpes is always HERe, just hiding.

 

Not trying to make any sort of statement at all on bare or covered anything. Gon. and Herp. are both treatable, gon. can be gotten rid of. herpes is with you forever, dormant if you are lucky. Just saying.

 

Gonorrhea is the second most-commonly diagnosed STI in North America. It has been treated with antibiotics, but has been growing resistant for 70 years. In the 1940s, sulfa drugs stopped being effective. In the 1970s, so did penicillins; tetracyclines lost effectiveness in the 1980s. In 2007, fluroquinolone drugs also stopped working.

 

In August, the US Center for Disease Control announced that oral cephalosporins were no longer recommended for treating gonorrhea. The CDC issued new treatment guidelines for gonorrhea recommending a multiple antibiotic regime.

 

In January, the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that the one remaining drug that had been effective, Cefixime, was not effective in a number of cases identified in Toronto. An additional article in the same issue of the JAMA noted that there are no other treatment options available.

 

Gonorrhea can live happily in a human throat, undetected.

 

Anyone who has gonorrhea is at increased risk of infection if they come in contact with HIV/AIDS.

[Old Dog 179138]

... and the moral of the story is, whatever way you get em, a blowjob is a great thing.

 

amen.

[Guest t****ster***ke]

I agree with that, and I am one sees 2 favourite Sps regularly...1 is bbbj, the other CBJ only (ymmv is not even a factor).

 

I believe, however, if it came to a choice of seeing either of 2 equally great ladies, then in the context of the fact that I am ultimately paying for the experience, I would choose the one who is happy with bbbj, because I enjoy that that more.

 

i can see how it might influence someone's decision-making for sure. in a similar situation i might choose the woman with dark hair and blue eyes over the brown eyed blond (again, only if i absolutely had to, which is one of the great joys of the hobby, you really don't have to choose), because women with dark hair and blue eyes make me weak in the knees. that doesn't mean i won't try to sleep with every blond with brown eyes in my postal code, just that i, like everyone else, have a certain preference. i do not believe that is worth an sp changing the type of service she offers, or her hair color :)

[OGson 178]

honestly no matter what bbbj is a must for me, its better than fucking with a condom.

[Guest m**on]

As a business owner myself who provides a service to the public, in a different way of coarse then an sp but still provide a service. My competition is strong and find myself always looking for ways to attract new customers as well as keep existing ones. I have standards and i don't break them for anyone as 90% of my customers come to me from referrals. I am not rich but i make a good living at what i do because of the quality of work i provide to my customers and my honesty. On occasion i have been asked to do things that i'm not comfortable doing and my answer is always NO!!!. I will not be pressured into doing something i'm not comfortable doing and do not need that type of customer, my customers come to me because of the quality service i provide and there the ones i want to keep. So i guess what i'm trying to say is there is risk in everything we do, so we set our standards and stick to our values and hope for the best.

[rdoyle 647]

Only one person's (very humble) opinion, but the opinion of a long-time condom user and fan. Most of any man's objection to covering is psychological, and the kernel of truth that the objection is based on can be well handled by a little lube on the head before the cover goes on and making sure the condom isn't cold. The bulk of the difficulty vanishes with a change of attitude. Condoms are fun, helpful little creatures that make possible what would otherwise be entirely too risky - they are Man's third best friend.

 

Again, MHO, but I have a sense that North American culture has become quite blasé about STIs and their associated misery - inappropriately so.

[whiteman 14028]

Only one person's (very humble) opinion, but the opinion of a long-time condom user and fan. Most of any man's objection to covering is psychological, and the kernel of truth that the objection is based on can be well handled by a little lube on the head before the cover goes on and making sure the condom isn't cold. The bulk of the difficulty vanishes with a change of attitude. Condoms are fun, helpful little creatures that make possible what would otherwise be entirely too risky - they are Man's third best friend.

Interesting points about condoms and lube. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of providers are absolutely paranoid about mixing lube with condoms! Most will not put lube on a penis before sliding the shield on. Some of them believe that depending on the lube, it might eat through the rubber creating breakages. Others believe that the condom can slip off if it is too lubricated on the inside. I don't know how true those beliefs are but they do contribute to the general dislike of condoms. I myself have said in the past that I'd rather have a bareback handjob than any kind of a covered blowjob.

[canuckhooker 19202]

Well again a little knowledge or research goes a long way. The problem with lubes and condoms is that although water based is fairly safe to use with a condom, oil and silcone causes latex to deteriorate, which kind of defeats the purpose of the condom.

 

Water based lubes wash off quickly which is good. While using a silicone lube you are at a greater risk of an infection because it, and any bacteria it picks up, are not as easily washed away.

 

A water based lube with glycerin is also bad for folks prone to yeast infection.

[whiteman 14028]

Well again a little knowledge or research goes a long way. The problem with lubes and condoms is that although water based is fairly safe to use with a condom, oil and silcone causes latex to deteriorate, which kind of defeats the purpose of the condom.

Well, what's the type of lube that they use right on lubricated condoms, and so you can use the same type? Also why not make a lubricated condom that goes on both sides?

[canuckhooker 19202]

I am going to bite my tongue at this juncture, point out the first sentence in my last post and say "Google is your friend".

 

I guess we should all try and stay within the thread topic and not get sidetr..... LOOK A SQUIRREL!!!!!!! CAN WE RIDE BIKES NOW? WHY DO THEY CALL IT A RIM JOB?

[Guest]

http://std.about.com/od/prevention/ht/maleconhowto.htm

 

Please look things up and know your facts 100% before posting that you disagree with someone on this thread. Whiteman, what might be good for you, might not be good for the next person and there's nothing wrong with that. I think snapper made a very good point. Thank you Snapper for participating in this conversation.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

Interesting points about condoms and lube. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of providers are absolutely paranoid about mixing lube with condoms! Most will not put lube on a penis before sliding the shield on. Some of them believe that depending on the lube, it might eat through the rubber creating breakages. Others believe that the condom can slip off if it is too lubricated on the inside. I don't know how true those beliefs are but they do contribute to the general dislike of condoms. I myself have said in the past that I'd rather have a bareback handjob than any kind of a covered blowjob.

 

I said earlier I was not going to post about this ....but here it goes...

 

YES you are right about the confusion on lub/condoms....in this case of putting a bit of lube prior to the condom can provide some comfort to my male partners, but when pulling out and during(in some cases) I did hold the base of te condom to prevent slipping. This is also true for pre-cum. But now I am speaking mainly of FS..but can apply for BBBJ.

Thanks for mentioning this:)

[MonsieurLaGraine 120]

Way too scared of herpes!

[crankF 12893]

... and the moral of the story is, whatever way you get em, a blowjob is a great thing.

 

amen.

I agree with the Dog and at the very least, a covered blow-job is better than a no-job!!

[Guest]

When your confronting someone on a std thread about the integrity of the condoms due to the lubricant disolving the condom. I think it's important to have some diret information attaced to your explination. Especially if you are planning on standing by your statement and compare your situation/prefrences to anothers situation/prefrences. I would like to see actual facts on this thread rather then speculation. It is just a good way to avoid confrontation. Sorry Whiteman, I just dont want to see people going back and forth about things that can be avaoided by posting actual facts. If the findings are wrong then they can then be challanged. In the end Whiteman you were right and if you had done your research, no one would have been able to challenge you.

 

Here is my findings.

 

http://std.about.com/od/prevention/ht/maleconhowto.htm

 

"Using lubricants can reduce the risk of condom breakage, but you should use only water-based lubricants with condoms. Oil-based lubricants, such as vaseline, can damage the integrity of the condom."

 

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/my-partners-condom-keeps-coming-inside-me-151-why

 

"Condom slippage can be caused by a few different factors including condom size (length and width), lubrication, and usage. First off, next time your partner puts on a condom you might want to check the fit. Is the condom snug around the shaft of the penis? Did your boyfriend roll the condom down all of the way? Is there extra latex hanging or bunched up? They don't call it a "love glove" for nothing; the condom shouldn't slide around on him while he's sliding around in you, so make it sure it fits like a glove. Keep in mind that brands and styles of condoms are varied. Perhaps sampling a few to see which ones provide a better fit may be helpful, and fun.

 

Secondly, wet can be wild, but too much lube could be your problem. If you're putting lubricant inside the condom, try putting a little less in there (just at the tip), or go without lube on the inside altogether. You may want to consider buying un-lubed condoms and using lube only on the outside."

 

Again, I am sorry Whiteman. I just don't want to see arguments on this thread.

 

One more thread about condoms and lube.

 

http://www.safesense.com/lubricant-resource.shtml

[canuckhooker 19202]

When your confronting someone on a std thread about the integrity of the condoms due to the lubricant disolving the condom. I think it's important to have some diret information attaced to your explination.l[/url]

 

This argument is a bit hard to follow as it is split across three threads. I have been saying since the start of this "thread that never ends", to do "real research" and quote primary sources.

 

Your three links are from: a) a site that sells condoms, (not an unbiased source), b) About.com, not the most reliable source and c) an advice column for students at Columbia University.

 

Of the three, the last is actually the one that is probably the most reliable. If only you had done a little bit more searching on the site before challenging someone. Read this link http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/petroleum-jelly-151-good-or-bad-lube-condoms and then re-think your post. Oil based lubes do disolve condoms, from your own source. And the problems with silicone lube is also explained if you want to actually do some further digging.

[Guest]

The problem with what you wrote here can be summed up in Mark Twain's words that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

Yes, over 50% of the SP's "who responded" said they felt pressure. However only 30 SPs have responded to date. Is that a representative sample, or are most of the respondents just those who do not want to offer BBBJ?

 

The trouble with this thread and the other on the topic, is that people are trying to use "statistics", and statements that imply they are being coerced, to win their point. If an SP does not want to offer BBBJ, then that is their choice. The fact that another offers it should not concern them.

 

Read that again! It is none of their business. I have seen people argue on these threads that it is their business because another SP offering that service puts them at risk if they see the same clients. Well that would only be true if every client only had sexual encounters with "sex-workers". I can't recall ever getting a CBJ from a "civillian". So that shoots down that argument. The only way you would ever be truly safe is if everyone in the world only did oral covered.

 

Again, whether a sex-worker offers a CBJ or a BBBJ, or DATY (covered or uncovered), or DATO, or Greek, or DFK or Mild BDSM, it is their own business and should not be debated here, or anywhere else, by other sex-workers or clients. Some sex-workers on here are saying they feel coerced to give BBBJ, but I would argue that this whole debate could be seen as an attempt to coerce or use the "court of public opinion" to get those who do offer BBBJ to change their service. That could be for safety reasons, but I could also imply it is to reduce what some may think is the competitive edge given to those who offer it. However, reading these threads and seeing the results of the poll you could draw the conclusion that it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

 

Again, the decision to do a BJ covered or uncovered is up to the provider in question. It has no bearing on any other provider. You make your decisions based on what you feel is correct and guide yourself accordingly. What anyone else does is really none of your business.

 

Well I take pity on my fellow CERB-ites and only post this on one of the three threads.

 

This argument is getting tiresome, and not just this particular time. It seems we keep going down the same path, having the same arguments over and over again. I just spent about 2 minutes with this wonderful feature we have on this site called "search" (something that some of you should seriously try using some time) and here are just four threads of many on the topic.

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=71451&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34872&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20951&highlight=transmission

 

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16380&highlight=transmission

 

This time though we have three active threads with the same people posting on all three of them, and rarely providing any new information and insight that is not already on this board. First someone hijacked a thread on BBFS to rant about the perils of BBBJ. Then an SP put up a poll with a set of questions that although well-meaning just made things more complicated. Believe it or not folks there is a science to writing polls to gather data properly. Then a hobbiest in attempt to clarify things posted an SP only poll with the same sort of problematic questions. The we have people cross-posting links irrelevant to the discussion on multiple threads. A serious breach of netiquette on any board.

 

What angers me the most is that these arguments are not being made in the interest of health and safety, they are being made because some people feel they have an economic interest at stake. Case in point, an SP on here last night posting about how she felt that to keep her financial well being she had to offer BBBJ.

 

The word being thrown around is coercion, which is pretty strong. It generally implies some sort of duress being applied. I don't think that a hobbiest choosing to see an SP who does BBBJ instead of CBJ is really duress. Particularly since the anecdotal evidence on these threads is that for the vast majority of the hobbiests it has no bearing.

 

I am not going searching for facts, and transmission rates as someone on here has suggested. There is no need. A lot of what we do in this hobby has risks. Condoms are not 100% effective. I am not going to cite the failure rate here and have people shoot at my statistics, look it up. The point is that they break, slip off, and do not prevent all diseases, particularly herpes, warts and even HPV. (and I could add non-STI infections as well)

 

And if you are going to look it up then Wikipedia and Ask.com may be a good place to start, but do us all a favour and try and find some primary sources. Dig deeper, and look at several sources, because there are a lot of different facts and statistics out there depending on who is presenting them. A lot of people on the internet have their own agenda. (surprise surprise)

 

The fact of the matter is that this hobby is full of risks, and not just from STI's. The only safe way to avoid these risks is not to have sex or contact with another human at all. I don't think many of us would want to do that.

 

How a person handles these risks, mitigates them, protects themselves and their partners is what is important. Is there a risk with BBBJ, yes there is. But there is also a demand for it, and not just from the hobbiests. I know many SP's who really don't like sucking on a latex condom. That is their choice. They know the risks.

 

Is BBBJ the only risky thing we do in this hobby? Not by a long shot.

 

My final word is this. Wanting to have a BBBJ or a CBJ is a personal choice. Wanting to provide either is also a personal choice. If you choose not to provide that service then live with your decision. If someone else makes a different choice it is none of your business. You can say it is coercion, but I would also say that trying to use peer-pressure on a board like this to try and convince your competition to do something different is also coercion.

 

To the mod(s) as I have shown here we have debated this thread ad nauseum over the years, and nothing really new has been added to the mix. We now have 3 similar threads. Can we at least merge them, if you are not going to lock them?

 

I understand that you are not happy with this thread and that you think that the topics on this thread can be inflammatory. I wish you would just stop taking part in this thread if you feel that way. Do you have something to prove? To go out of your way to prove that you were right all along and that we should not be sitting here talking about std's. Please STOP trying to cause confusion and fights on this thread. You are entitled to your opinion on this thread and I was fine with you expressing yourself but it seems like you have nothing of real value to contribute to this thread. It just feels like you want to argue because you are not happy to see yet another std thread. This is important to a lot of people and just because you don't like it doesn't mean that everyone on here feels the same way as you.

 

Oh, yes and flaming me about the statistics I have posted. I never claimed to have a ph. D or claimed to be an expert about things. I posted to find facts because yet again you started another argument with someone posting on this thread(whiteman) and I encouraged him to find facts so that people(you) can't pick his argument apart but I guess I was wrong about that too because you seemed to find another reason to start an argument(with me) because you don't want this post up anymore. Where are your facts to prove my facts are wrong, do your research too.

 

I was saying to use water based lube with condoms because the others are not good to use with condoms according to my source, condom seller or not. I already said not to use oil based lubes. I also never said anything about using silicone lube, although it says in one of the threads that's it's okey to use silicone with condoms. You could have just posted the link you posted and said here's some more facts about condoms and lube. If you can find real facts to say I am wrong, I would be perfectly happy to see what you have to say then. I would like to see the information about silicone lube, please post it. All I'm seeing on the posts I have provided below is that it is hard to wash off your body and cloths.

 

http://contraception.about.com/od/overthecounterchoices/tp/Siliconebasedlubricants.htm

 

http://contraception.about.com/od/additionalresources/ss/watersex_4.htm

 

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/what-lube

 

"Using lubricants can reduce the risk of condom breakage, but you should use only water-based lubricants with condoms. Oil-based lubricants, such as vaseline, can damage the integrity of the condom."

 

Can you not see that your actions are inflammatory too. I know this topic bothers you but you slamming your weight around because your not happy with something bothers me too. Please stop nit picking this thread apart so it can be closed.

[Guest C*****tte]

 

Your three links are from: a) a site that sells condoms, (not an unbiased source), b) About.com, not the most reliable source and c) an advice column for students at Columbia University.

 

 

A good friend is the sexuality advice columnist at About dot com. He is very well educated, well read in terms of years of sex research, including his own research and publications, and anyone should consider him a very reputable source of sex information.

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

A good friend is the sexuality advice columnist at About dot com. He is very well educated, well read in terms of years of sex research, including his own research and publications, and anyone should consider him a very reputable source of sex information.

 

 

Thanks Charlotte,

I could not understand why he(canuck) as saying my research was also not correct when I use about dot com, when I had cross referenced it with other material and even ask a sexual health nurse to confirm my info. So good to know that it is a reliable source!!

[APower20 400]

My actual girlfriend never gave me bbbj, and I've never been a huge fan of bj's in general...I get more pleasure from a hj or penetration. Never came from a bj before so I could care less if such a service is not provided or uses a condom (safer for both parties).

 

That said, DATY is a favourite of mine ;)