Is religion holding us back?

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I would guess there aren't too many devout people on here so hopefully no one gets too offended with my question.

 

Does religion serve a useful purpose or is it holding us back in our evolution as a species. We sure do some barbaric things in the name of various religions and you don't need to be religious to be a moral person, contrary to what religion has to say on the subject. I always thought if it was only fear of divine retribution making someone treat others nicely, we were in trouble.

 

Anyone have any opinions they want to discuss on the topic?

[Ice4fun 78396]

Kinda feel Religion like most things can be as good or as bad as you want to make it... for those who are against religion they will point to all the negative things associated with it but seldom seem to acknowledge anything that might be seen as positive. Conversely many religious people can only see the good that religion may have done and not the negative... for me the answer lies somewhere in the middle thankfully most people in this world are ok with allowing people to feel... To think and to believe in whatever they choose... they accept that people's beliefs can be different and be respectful and tolerant about it.

[Amanda-Lee 11094]

As a SPs point of view who has seen a few religious clients, they address their concern to me about it. I remember one said that in his religion being intimate is healthy and it's encouraged (I really don't remember the name of the religion) others were concerned that they had done something terrible and scared their partner would find out, some believed in parts of it and were fine.

 

Everyone is different.

 

Some religions they practice intimate encounters differently, which I was honored to experience.

 

It's not just religion it can also be culture and how they grew up, without having to do with religion at all.

[mrrnice2 157005]

If I am following the context of your post then my answer is, "YES," religion is holding us back. I am looking at it with a historical view, a world view, and a current view, and things do not seem to have changed much over time.

 

One only need look at the Crusades with Christians vs Muslims. Northern Ireland, Protestant vs Catholic. In Canadian history we think of Britain vs France but in reality that was also a conflict based on religion with Protestant vs Catholic again.

 

In the 21st Century it looks like now it's Muslims, or at least their skewed version of it, vs Christians.

 

Global conflict is keeping us back, and much of it was and continues to be based on religion. Just imagine the society we could be without the massive funds set aside for the military and anti-terrorism things.

 

The saddest part and most ironic is that the common denominator of all religions is peace.

 

Thanks Steve for starting this thread.

MN2

[MightyPen 67414]

Does religion serve a useful purpose or is it holding us back in our evolution as a species. We sure do some barbaric things in the name of various religions and you don't need to be religious to be a moral person, contrary to what religion has to say on the subject. ...

I've been an atheist my entire life. I was kind of obnoxious about it when I was young; but I'm more mellow now, having seen much more about people and their behaviour. These days, I think that overall religion does much more good than harm. But it certainly does it share of harm, and some of that is horrendous.

 

Religion's role is mostly social cohesion: it provides a community to which people can belong, and that helps them feel connected to something bigger than themselves. Human beings are herd creatures, so this satisfies an important psychological need for most people. It also offers a sense of meaning and order to the world ("don't worry, someone's in charge, and it all makes sense even if we can' see how"). And yes, it encourages conformity to the religion's moral system with the promise/threat of a supernatural monitor.

 

For 90% of people this all has a good result; folks maybe go to a church or equivalent, meet their neighbours regularly, try to be good people and good members of their community, and draw comfort when things go badly. Communities that happen to be religious can organize to do a lot of good.

 

Now, that said... there's also that last 10% who take elements of religion, and seize upon them with their own pathology or just jerk-ness. People use religion to justify being judgmental (that's not religion; that's just people), authoritarian (people again), violent (people again), and ridiculously clannish about who is in their club and who is out (people again). But it's only people who are already inclined this way who turn to extremes; and sure, while religion serves their miserable psychology well, they'd have found something else to work with if religion hadn't been handy. (Yes, I'm looking at YOU, UK football hooligans. Point for point.)

 

It's true that in its reliance on absolute and unquestionable authority, religion has the potential to hold back other ways of understanding the world (like scientific inquiry). But most people aren't absolute, and don't hold slavishly to either a religious or scientific view. For the most part, smart and healthy people can take the best from both and live their lives happily and constructively.

[Ice4fun 78396]

Religion is almost never the reason people go to war... it's almost always political... it's about power and control and wealth... in many many cases political leaders and those in pursuit of power invoke the name of religion to justify their ambitions for power. If there was no such thing as religion there would still be war.

 

Just my Opinion

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

Humanity does some awful things. Religion is often used as a justification for those awful things, as are philosophy, science (looking at you eugenics), social theory, history (looking at you vendettas) and a host of other things.

 

These other factors get dragged in as rationales for awful things because a) People keep doing awful things, and b) No one is ever the villian of their own story so they need a pretext to justify the awful things they plan to do.

 

Because many religions postulate ideals of good and evil, they're terrific rationales to employ. They fit with humanity's need to view themselves as good guys and those guys over there as bad guys. However, they're far from alone in that respect.

 

Do you judge a set of ideas by what they ARE or by what a group of people claiming to follow them actually DOES?

 

What if one group of people claiming (for example) to be influenced by Marxism use it as a pretext for ethnic cleansing, while another group influenced by Marxism sets up a communally owned organic farm in Northern Vermont and spend three generations being pretty good to each other? Do you blame Marxism for the actions of the first group and ignore the second, who actually follow its tenets more closely?

 

Scratch the surface of an atrocity and you almost always find a group of people engaged in some sort of power grab, paying lip service to whatever grand set of ideas was most convenient as a justification for the awful shit they intended to do.

 

My 2 cents.

[Guest H**t*****n]

I am not a religious person, but I would consider myself a spiritual person. My wife died some years ago and I feel a sustained spiritual connection with her and with some others in my life to whom I was very close and who have died. I conduct my life in a manner that is respectful of others, of others' property, of the environment and all earthly creatures and lastly I am respectful of myself. I have not subscribed to organized religion for many years, but I do not want to pigeon hole myself or identify myself as an atheist as such.

[Malena Parisi 5142]

Just my two cents..

Religion also has a big impact on our legal system and how the laws have been created, and what is good and what is bad.. This is also known throughout many other religions.. Laws and behaviour is still based on religion or the structure of the religion is trying to teach.. (Philosophies).. So yes it holds us back, almost like civilization is caught in a war between the "old ways and philosophies, and the new more open more liberal minded society civilization we have become due to knowledge and the accessibility to knowledge and being exposed to more things then our predecessors, grandparents, and parents..

[loopie 15358]

People use religion to justify whatever they felt like doing anyway. They might actually fool themselves into really believing that God wants them to do this or that, but their God is just a projection of themselves.

[Andee 220524]

When it comes to this business, I do not think religion factors into hobbying if a client is determined/decided to see a provider.

 

Without singling out any particular ethnic group or religion, I have seen men from different faiths and backgrounds. I am just relaying facts.

 

I was "married" once for a few hours and then "divorced" twice in order to accommodate a client's wishes.

 

I have been visited by men wearing traditional dress associated with their religion who did not make any apologies or explanations to me, nor did I ask or make comments.

 

As for the rest of it, my mother used to say religion is the root cause of all world wars. So do I think is religion holding us back? Definitely.

[Victoria Phoenix 3403]

Religion, the Age Old Question! I too have seen clients from différent races/cultures, and I am assuming some come from différent religious beliefs, That Is neither here nor There to me, what one Person holds True, should Be respected. Ironically, not So long ago I was With a New Friend, and was asked if I believe in God, and YES I do, So when I told my friend, He actually left my Company, but left the gift,, Again what one believes or has faith in or spirtuality in, or a Non believer, we all have the Right to decide,, we as a society have made religion into something That it was Never meant to be- needless wars, fighting, verbal attacks,, a mochary at best

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

At the time, in the late 1930's through to the mid 1950's, eugenics was mainstream science in North America and Europe. We had government policies of sterilization in both Canada and the U.S. based upon the theory. Is it science now? No. Was it? Absolutely.

[waterat 20911]

.....Is it science now? No. Was it? Absolutely. .....

OK fair enough. (or was that fish?) But we now - and since you and I were born - have a better understanding of what science is. Although it might be difficult to argue this in the current 'climate change' climate! I totally accept and agree with your point but wish to support true science in progressing.

"Gravitation cannot be held accountable for people falling in love." Albert Einstein

 

Additional Comments:

Is science exempt from culpability for things it once taught while ...

 

Yes, I agree. But again, I stress, this is not science - it is teaching. The basis of science is questioning, doubt and skepticism... science is not the final answer - see my added comment in the previous post. Just so you know: I've appreciated every single one of your posts in this community! No gravitation involved!

[conquistador 18487]

Science is always evolving, so what was once was fact, may be changed now and have a better understanding.

 

With religion, it is static and not changing... People believe the same things that supposedly happened years ago and try to prove things from a book that was written 2k years ago.

 

At least with science you can say we were wrong and move on from that.

 

With religion, there is no such thing.

 

I don't think religion is a main reason for war but it sure doesn't help the situation. It mainly is used to identify the participants or differentiate between the groups.

 

Yes, religion is holding us back, with dated views.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Guest H**t*****n]

I am not a religious person, but I would consider myself a spiritual person. My wife died some years ago and I feel a sustained spiritual connection with her and with some others in my life to whom I was very close and who have died. I conduct my life in a manner that is respectful of others, of others' property, of the environment and all earthly creatures and lastly I am respectful of myself. I have not subscribed to organized religion for many years, but I do not want to pigeon hole myself or identify myself as an atheist as such.

 

To answer OP's question about being held back, personally I would say no but this may not, in fact, be the case for others as stated here. Simply put, I do my utmost to do the right thing.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Great posts, everyone! We are lucky to have so many respectful, bright minds contributing on this site.

 

Personally, I do not subscribe to religious dogma or faith although I do feel somewhat spiritual and connected to nature and some people.

 

While wars and domination may be driven by people seeking power and control, Religion provides an excellent vehicle to stir the masses to their power driven cause and thus my feelings are that religion holds us back. It inflames our deepest emotions and superstitions, which can be easily manipulated by religious, charismatic leaders.

 

Faith can be described as "being satisfied with not knowing" and its very nature resists evolving, therefore holding us back. Science, on the other hand exists to evolve. It's not perfect and can also be manipulated, but its goal is "not being satisfied with not knowing". Science can have just as much wonder and awe if you choose to see the world in that light.

 

Compassion and love are not solely the purview of religion. Maybe there is something after this life but I would rather have science work on that riddle, than religion. Having said all this I am happy to live and let live. Eventually we will evolve towards understanding this world and our place in it, and beyond.

 

Thanks again for your opinions.

[Guest s******ecan****]

I consider religion to be evil and wicked. The sooner we leave it behind the better, though I'm under no illusion it will happen anytime soon.

 

Where religion is powerful in the world you will find oppression, where you find freedom and tolerance you will also see religion in decline.

[Ice4fun 78396]

Science is always evolving, so what was once was fact, may be changed now and have a better understanding.

 

With religion, it is static and not changing... People believe the same things that supposedly happened years ago and try to prove things from a book that was written 2k years ago.

 

At least with science you can say we were wrong and move on from that.

 

With religion, there is no such thing.

 

I don't think religion is a main reason for war but it sure doesn't help the situation. It mainly is used to identify the participants or differentiate between the groups.

 

Yes, religion is holding us back, with dated views.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

I think I would have to disagree with your assertion that religion does not change... if your comment was intended to suggest that "some" religious people are intransigent in their beliefs then I would suggest that is unfortunately the case but to suggest that religious people don't look at the basic tenets of their beliefs and try to see how they apply in today's world is in my opinion not true. Religion like all of society evolves maybe not as fast or as far as anti religious people may want but I have seen significant change in just my lifetime. As an example I would point to the acceptance of same sex marriage by many Christian faiths... not so long ago this would have been thought totally unthinkable.

 

Just my Opinion

[conquistador 18487]

I think I would have to disagree with your assertion that religion does not change... if your comment was intended to suggest that "some" religious people are intransigent in their beliefs then I would suggest that is unfortunately the case but to suggest that religious people don't look at the basic tenets of their beliefs and try to see how they apply in today's world is in my opinion not true. Religion like all of society evolves maybe not as fast or as far as anti religious people may want but I have seen significant change in just my lifetime. As an example I would point to the acceptance of same sex marriage by many Christian faiths... not so long ago this would have been thought totally unthinkable.

 

Just my Opinion

Yes I would agree with you, but that just might be changing due to the culture and not the religion itself, the bible itself is against homosexuality, etc. The church itself may relax on certain things. This is probably true for a few denominations, but say the Evangelicals, no.

 

Think the church is just keeping up with culture, cause that's the way people are going or more accepting... But the bible stays the same.

 

If you go to other countries say in Africa or Mid East they are not as accepting as the west... So move slower.

 

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[Ice4fun 78396]

Yes I would agree with you, but that just might be changing due to the culture and not the religion itself, the bible itself is against homosexuality, etc. The church itself may relax on certain things. This is probably true for a few denominations, but say the Evangelicals, no.

 

Think the church is just keeping up with culture, cause that's the way people are going or more accepting... But the bible stays the same.

 

If you go to other countries say in Africa or Mid East they are not as accepting as the west... So move slower.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

Well the Bible is a book and over the years it has been interpreted in many ways..often the interpretation has taken on the particular vent of the person doing the interpretation...

 

The bible is a collection of stories written or recorded by people over a longer period of time... if you are a Christian and therefore a follower of Jesus Christ then you know in large part it is stories about him but not infact written by him... This is not a document delivered to man by God it is many men's interpretation of what God expects from men.

 

I wonder is it possible that the authors of the bible included in it the cultural beliefs that were popular at their time... not unlike scientific writing at any particular time include the scientific knowledge at the time which we know is often proven wrong at a later date. Perhaps... just perhaps the authors of the bible misinterpreted "god" message to man (of course this all assumes their is a God and I will be fucked if I know the answer to that one.

 

You maintain that the Bible itself is against Homosexuality... hmmm I agree that way too many Christians read that into their interpretation of the bible but I have had Gay Christian friends who would beg to differ with what the Bible does or does not say...

 

This book written by MEN is thousands of years old and reflect that in its wording and examples used... but yeah your must be right it must be all wrong I mean it does not even mention that Internet and shit God must have known that was coming.

 

Just my Opinion

 

Additional Comments:

Yes I would agree with you, but that just might be changing due to the culture and not the religion itself, the bible itself is against homosexuality, etc. The church itself may relax on certain things. This is probably true for a few denominations, but say the Evangelicals, no.

 

Think the church is just keeping up with culture, cause that's the way people are going or more accepting... But the bible stays the same.

 

If you go to other countries say in Africa or Mid East they are not as accepting as the west... So move slower.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

Well the Bible is a book and over the years it has been interpreted in many ways..often the interpretation has taken on the particular vent of the person doing the interpretation...

 

The bible is a collection of stories written or recorded by people over a longer period of time... if you are a Christian and therefore a follower of Jesus Christ then you know in large part it is stories about him but not infact written by him... This is not a document delivered to man by God it is many men's interpretation of what God expects from men.

 

I wonder is it possible that the authors of the bible included in it the cultural beliefs that were popular at their time... not unlike scientific writing at any particular time include the scientific knowledge at the time which we know is often proven wrong at a later date. Perhaps... just perhaps the authors of the bible misinterpreted "god" message to man (of course this all assumes their is a God and I will be fucked if I know the answer to that one.

 

You maintain that the Bible itself is against Homosexuality... hmmm I agree that way too many Christians read that into their interpretation of the bible but I have had Gay Christian friends who would beg to differ with what the Bible does or does not say...

 

This book written by MEN is thousands of years old and reflect the in its wording and examples used... but yeah your must be right I must be all wrong I mean it does not even mention that Internet and shit God must have known that was coming.

 

Just my Opinion

[conquistador 18487]

Well the Bible is a book and over the years it has been interpreted in many ways..often the interpretation has taken on the particular vent of the person doing the interpretation...

 

The bible is a collection of stories written or recorded by people over a longer period of time... if you are a Christian and therefore a follower of Jesus Christ then you know in large part it is stories about him but not infact written by him... This is not a document delivered to man by God it is many men's interpretation of what God expects from men.

 

I wonder is it possible that the authors of the bible included in it the cultural beliefs that were popular at their time... not unlike scientific writing at any particular time include the scientific knowledge at the time which we know is often proven wrong at a later date. Perhaps... just perhaps the authors of the bible misinterpreted "god" message to man (of course this all assumes their is a God and I will be fucked if I know the answer to that one.

 

You maintain that the Bible itself is against Homosexuality... hmmm I agree that way too many Christians read that into their interpretation of the bible but I have had Gay Christian friends who would beg to differ with what the Bible does or does not say...

 

This book written by MEN is thousands of years old and reflect that in its wording and examples used... but yeah your must be right it must be all wrong I mean it does not even mention that Internet and shit God must have known that was coming.

 

Just my Opinion

 

Additional Comments:

 

 

Well the Bible is a book and over the years it has been interpreted in many ways..often the interpretation has taken on the particular vent of the person doing the interpretation...

 

The bible is a collection of stories written or recorded by people over a longer period of time... if you are a Christian and therefore a follower of Jesus Christ then you know in large part it is stories about him but not infact written by him... This is not a document delivered to man by God it is many men's interpretation of what God expects from men.

 

I wonder is it possible that the authors of the bible included in it the cultural beliefs that were popular at their time... not unlike scientific writing at any particular time include the scientific knowledge at the time which we know is often proven wrong at a later date. Perhaps... just perhaps the authors of the bible misinterpreted "god" message to man (of course this all assumes their is a God and I will be fucked if I know the answer to that one.

 

You maintain that the Bible itself is against Homosexuality... hmmm I agree that way too many Christians read that into their interpretation of the bible but I have had Gay Christian friends who would beg to differ with what the Bible does or does not say...

 

 

Just my Opinion

 

I agree with you that the bible is a collection of books written by men. But church takes it as literal, no? That God spoke to those people and created the bible. That's what they believe, no?!

 

Now do I believe all that, no lol... It's a collection of books written by humans.

 

People take the book literally, the extremist take it on face value and the book will predict events and the beginning of the end of time.

 

As for being gay and the bible, that's open for interpretation of course... But the church didn't/doesn't think that way and has been against gay marriage since like forever.... I'm totally open for gay marriage!

 

And look how long the church has taken to get to this point...

 

"This book written by MEN is thousands of years old and reflect the in its wording and examples used... but yeah your must be right I must be all wrong I mean it does not even mention that Internet and shit God must have known that was coming"

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, where is that coming from??

 

I'm just saying the religion has taken until only now were it's allowing more things or accepting. You're saying it's changing... I agree it is but not to the extent of science.

 

It's not changing like science and that's my point... It's changing but not at the same pace....a lot slower.

 

Science has data that you can actually use...

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Ice4fun 78396]

"I agree with you that the bible is a collection of books written by men. But church takes it as literal, no? That God spoke to those people and created the bible. That's what they believe, no?!...."

 

"As for being gay and the bible, that's open for interpretation of course... But the church didn't/doesn't think that way and has been against gay marriage since like forever.... I'm totally open for gay marriage!"

 

"And look how long the church has taken to get to this point..."

 

You keep referencing "the Church" but I am not sure exactly which church you are referring too... The Roman Catholic Church... The Anglican Church... the United Church of Canada... The Pentecostal Church... The Greek Orthodox... Christians are not all one monolithic block some are more progressive then others... the Pope does not speak for the Christian Church just the Roman Catholic Church.

 

"I'm not saying you're wrong, where is that coming from??"

 

I maybe could have said that better was not suggesting that you were saying I was wrong... I am not saying you are either... just a discussion we all have our opinions. Sorry if I made you think that.

 

Love the discussion by the way.

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

Really interesting discussion.

 

The original question was whether religion was holding humanity back. Because we're in the West, we tend to focus on Christianity to the exclusion of all else, but let's start there.

 

My contention is that any one of a broad range of ideas can (and has) been used to justify atrocities in the past. Those same ideas, in their truer forms, may also have been responsible for social good. Ghandi's devout Hinduism was instrumental in the overthrow of oppression in India. William Pitt's devout Christianity was at the foundation of the abolition of slavery in Britain. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" was underwritten by his faith, as was the institution of free universal Health Care in Canada by former Baptist Minister Tommy Douglas.

 

Big ideas, grand ideas, can be perverted to justify horrible things, just as easily as they can be used to inspire wonderful things.

 

Socialism and communism have grandly moral narrative centres, yet both have been employed to justify genocide. Mao Tse Tung, atheist and devotee of science, slaughtered millions of people. Does that mean that science or atheism are "holding us back"?

 

I revert, always, to the central tenet of judging ideas by what they actually SAY, and judging people by what they actually DO.

[Phaedrus 209521]

Faith can be described as "being satisfied with not knowing" and its very nature resists evolving, therefore holding us back. Science, on the other hand exists to evolve. It's not perfect and can also be manipulated, but its goal is "not being satisfied with not knowing". Science can have just as much wonder and awe if you choose to see the world in that light.

 

Interesting you should say that: I've always though precisely the opposite.

 

Science has been up its fair share of blind alleys, to be sure, but it's I've always seen it as happy to say, "We don't understand this, but we're working on it," and - crucially - not being afraid to say this. Faith and religion, by contrast, seem to me to consist largely of inventing gods and demons to explain away the things we don't understand: why the sun rises, why the rain falls (or not), why people are amazing or awful or just plain strange. In many of these cases, science has taken over the explanations, and in the others... the God of the Gaps is ever-diminishing.