mister_crufty

Thanks Sam, This is kind of what I suspected. I think I would prefer to only see the latter type of woman if possible. I'd hate to think that I was doing this with someone who was doing it because they felt trapped or were badly damaged. These are the types of thoughts that make me incredibly conflicted about this. The women I've met so far seem to be stable, well balanced, secure and confident ladies who I feel proud to spend time with. I think that I would feel very guilty if I thought they were victims in any way. But what is the right way to think? If someone is in the sex trade but don't really want to be or it's doing them emotional harm, is it ethical for me to see them? I tend to think not but the other side of the coin is that they need the money for some reason it's not for me to judge their situation and refuse to help them get it. If I'm kind and gentle and considerate with them in giving them money for their services, does that make it okay? I think I need to take a women's studies course or something. :-P Additional Comments: I'm trying not to keep dragging this out but I NEVER EVER IN ANY WAY implied that I was trying to find out what any individual makes. If someone tells me they are a programmer with certain skill set and experience doing X at company Y, I can have a pretty good idea of the salary range. I was just trying to see how this profession compared in the most general way to other main stream professions. And, as I replied above, I'm less about numbers and more about cost-benefit of the profession as a whole. ------EDIT------ Can we please close this thread? It's starting to get off topic and I feel badly enough already....it's exhausting trying to defend myself especially when I'm not particularly defensible in this case.

Thank you Cat! This is actually the answer that I was really trying to get to in my round about way. Computer programmers...always gotta be about the math. I just want to say that I love what you all do. Not just for me personally but for every other lonely guy like me out there. I wish I had been able to do this years ago. When I think of all the bad times I've had to get through by myself and what a difference the comfort of a paid companion would have made in my life, I have no words. Thank you so much to all of you for putting yourselves out there.

Ahahaha! Thanks man. I appreciate that. No one will ever accuse me of not overthinking things or knowing when to quit while I'm ahead. I spend far too much time trying to put myself in other peoples shoes. I'm in the process of trying to make a date or two for this week. Wish me luck. Hopefully there are still some ladies left who haven't put me in their blacklist. ;-)

Thanks Cat. You're very kind. I'm definitely going to spend more time in the sticky posts and such so I don't ask the same stupid questions that have been answered before. ---edit---- deleting more of me putting my foot in my stupid fat mouth based on next reply.

Any Fifth Element fans? If anyone asks if you're a cop just say, "Negative. I am a meat popsicle." You'll either get a laugh or confuse the hell out of them. Either way you win. ;-)

Cleo Catra was the first woman I saw after swearing off seeing providers forever. I was like a 40 year old virgin in the hobby and I hadn't been coping with it very well. Years of sexual hangups and a neglectful relationship had been taking its toll on my self esteem. Cleo is warm and sexy with such soft skin. Her tattoos are beautiful and I feel like I could spend the whole hour just going over them. When I met her, some were still fresh and the contrast of the rough parts where they were healing and the smooth skin around them was fascinating to touch. All of them seem to have meaning and maybe there's a story to learn about each one. The new one was a contrast to some of the other more serious art. A unicorn and a rainbow which was cute and perhaps a little ironic, it seemed to encapsulate the complexity and depth of this woman I was so lucky to be spending some time with. I'm always nervous when meeting someone new but she quickly put me at ease with a warm hug and kiss, welcoming me in from the cold. As we undressed and started to cuddle together, I couldn't stop looking at her, running my hands all over. Trying to experience as much of her as I could knowing that I only had a little time. I'm a quick draw artist on the first go around and when a woman with oral skills like Cleo starts to work on me, it's not going to last for long. This was no exception. She has an enthusiasm about what she does with her mouth that made it impossible for me to last. That's okay though. I actually love to get that part out of the way because it lets me devote my full attention to my favorite part of the session. The part where I try to return the favor. I wanted to eat her up. I'm sure that I'm far from the most skilled person in the oral department but she seemed to enjoy what I was doing. I wandered around with my mouth, east, west, north and my favorite, south. Everywhere I went was marvelous and I was rewarded with little vocalizations and movements that let me know it was appreciated. I don't remember how long we did this for. I'm sure I was ready for round two after only a little bit of this but I wasn't in any hurry to stop. It was only after I realized that she probably wasn't going to finish this way that I decided it was time for the main event. It's a blur after that. We ran though some positions, tried some different angles. My hip was a bit sore from hockey so some positions were giving me a bit of trouble but she was always ready to move onto something new. Perhaps the session was a bit schizophrenic from her point of view but I loved the variety. I'm sure I was dripping sweat all over the place. As we were coming towards the end of the session, it was beginning to look like I might not finish round two. I'm actually quite alright with this since I've already had round one but she seemed determined. She pulled off the rubber and we went into a 69 where I got to enjoy the view and taste as she worked me over with all of her skill. She got me there, hanging on as I was bucking my hips, thrusting into her mouth. In the back of my head I was worried that I was going too hard, that I would choke her or something but she never gave up. The second finish was incredibly intense and after we cleaned up, I found my legs had started shaking enough to make it hard to walk to the car. My hip injury was causing me enough grief that I was having trouble working the clutch as I drove. She had completely wiped me out. I knew I needed some more cardio and weight training if I was going to see her again so I went the gym right after. Terrible idea. I had nothing left. I don't know if I'll ever be able to keep up with this woman. I'm pretty sure I never even made her shift into second gear. Absolutely incredible experience. I'm actually hesitant to see her again just because I think she might almost be too much woman for me. Try her out. She's the ride of a lifetime.

Point well taken. I'm a huge nerd and whenever I discover something new (golf, cooking, any type of hobby), I completely immerse myself in it to the point of obsession. I want to learn everything I can possibly know about the subject. It's an OCD thing and I truly apologize if I've offended anyone. I see many many thanks and nominations to the posts shooting down this question so I respectfully withdraw it and won't discuss it any further. Additional Comments: I've apologized before and I'll continue to do so here. I was only curious about the general business model, not specifics of any provider. As I said, I withdraw my question and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. Additional Comments: Computer programmer with OCD about new subjects. Sorry for any offense. Additional Comments: Now I'm REALLY wishing I had seen that thread. I've never been on the other side of a flame war before. It really sucks and I feel really bad. Sorry. :-( Additional Comments: Sorry. Again, I wasn't trying to ask questions of a specific provider...just to understand the business model. Please everyone stop yelling at me...I'm sorry! :-( Additional Comments: Thank you for being gentle. You're right though. I can't expect to learn everything about something in a few weeks. You want to know how bad it is having OCD? I was browsing CERB the other evening when it occurred to me that I was on the laptop while watching TV on the couch with the wife. Does that seem like a smart thing to do? I am a bear of very little brain. --------EDIT-------- Just looked at that list. While the majority of the questions are quite awful and I can't believe anyone would ask them, I'm ashamed to say I've been guilty of asking a few of them. Not for any ill intentions but just because I'm friendly and like to get to know people. It really didn't occur to me that they were widely considered inappropriate. Taylor Monroe (my first) shared her name with me so I didn't know it wasn't common practice. I think I owe some more people some apologies as well...(Hi Cleo! Hi Taylor!). I've kind of been a bull in a china shop. --------EDIT-------- I hope everyone understands that I have the utmost respect for all you ladies and the work you do. I'm trying really hard not to get put on the blacklist here because I love seeing you and I really want to be a good client. Additional Comments: I found this comment excessively harsh. The only reason you know of my mistakes is because I stood up, owned up to them and posted them here so others might not make the same ones I did. Lessons learned through stories are more memorable than lists of rules. I make mistakes. We all do. I did over 5 years in jail as a young man for a mistake I could have tried to deny. Instead I turned myself in, confessed what I had done and did my time. I believe this is what men do. Actions speak louder than words so lets look at my actual behavior. I show up on time, clean and well groomed above and below the waist. I treat ladies with respect. I see each provider I meet as a unique individual who I try to get to know and understand as much as I am able. Perhaps this is not always welcome. I'm still learning. I never (so far) have put my pleasure ahead of hers. I want to give as much as I receive. I contribute to these forums, trying to make contributions to foster interesting or fun discussions. I try to write thoughtful recommendations for providers to show how much I appreciate them and hopefully help them find clients who will appreciate them as well. I never objectify women or treat them as anything less than unique individuals who have the same hopes, dreams, troubles and strifes as the rest of us. Perhaps ironically for a hobbiest but I consider myself a feminist. I am not 'analyzing' providers as you say but trying to understand the profession. When I'm waited on at a restaurant, I understand how hard they work and for how little money. I'm unfailingly kind and always leave a tip, even if the service isn't great because I know that it's hard and they don't always have a great day. I just wanted to get a bit better idea of how the day-to-day behind the scenes business worked. Perhaps the money part was a red herring. It's more just to get perspective of the sacrifices made for the job in terms of evenings and weekends lost, spare time interrupted by constant emails, texts and calls, etc. Once again, I'm sorry for any offense.

This! I find it amazing that every woman has to post big warnings saying, "Don't show up dirty or stinky or whatever." Seriously, WTF? I could never imagine showing up to meet ANY woman being any less than my best. I'm going to be clean, nice smelling, well dressed, polite and on time or die trying. I can't imagine what some guys could possibly be thinking.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm certainly not trying to pry. As I said, it's very easy to say, "$250 an hour? These girls have got it made, living the high life". My intent was just to examine it more closely to show people that it's a pretty tough job. Some clients are pretty demanding and can be real pricks. Maybe if they knew that it's not all roses and candy-canes they'd be a bit more appreciative. It's kind of like billable hours for lawyers. You can only bill so many per week but your overhead is still there. As self employed people, if you're sick or injured or something? Too bad, no money for you. It's tough. I guess this is just me trying to think deeply about the profession to get a better appreciation for these ladies putting themselves out there, taking risks, making some lucky guys happy one date at a time. You're like the super-heroes of sex! Additional Comments: Erin, thank you so much for your analysis. You really opened my eyes to just how many things a provider has to be on top of in order to be successful in the business. You have to be your own secretary, sales and marketing exec, etc. Once again, I'm not trying to be nosy. I'm just new here and I wasn't expecting the level of professionalism and pride that so many of these ladies put into their work. I'm really astonished and would never have imagined that the sex trade could be like this. I think many people outside this hobby probably share that view. They've never thought about how it's a real business, easily comparable to a lawyer, plumber, accountant, physiotherapist, whatever. And it seems like many of you are running your businesses in an incredibly professional, ethical and efficient manner. My hat is off to all of you.

I wonder what the economic analysis is for 'real' dating vs. seeing providers? Sex isn't free...if you have to wine and dine and spend time doing shit you don't want to do in order to get laid, how much does it cost you in time, money and effort? What is 'the cost per fuck' so to speak? I'm think that providers are probably quite competitive opportunity-cost wise with trying to maintain an active dating life. Plus there's the whole, "you get what you pay for". With a known provider, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to get for my money. With a date, YMMV becomes YMWVAL....your mileage WILL vary A LOT!

I guess I see two positives about writing a reco. One, it's fun. I love writing and trying to find a creative way to capture and share and experience is a good challenge. Two, I feel like I'm doing a good deed, praising her in public, letting the world know how much I appreciated her. So few people in any profession are praised for doing a good job on any consistent basis. Perhaps even less in service professions. I makes me feel good to think that I can write something that might help her be more successful in her profession.

Yeah, it's a grass-is-greener thing. Lots of things look good from 20 thousand feet but when you dig in deeper, it's a pretty tough job. Makes me love and appreciate these hard working ladies even more.

Nice! Read that in Austin Powers voice. I agree though. Right now I'm running at a pretty hot burn rate because it's so new but economics are going to force a slow down soon. Hopefully I'll get the initial rush out of my system and settle down. Additional Comments: Ooh. Good point. I've been sticking to the Ottawa boards without exploring the rest of the site. Sorry if I've been hijacking the forum.

This may be a super boring subject and I expect many of you aren't interested in this kind of discussion but I've been thinking a little bit about the cost-benefit analysis of this line of work. I started out thinking simplistically. Imagine a hypothetical courtesan who charges $200 per hour and averages 10 clients per week. If she had a generous vacation schedule and worked only 45 weeks per year, she would be grossing $90k. If she chose to be completely under the table this would probably be equivalent to at least $120k per year. This sounds like a lot of money but now we have to take into account costs. Advertising, supplies, clothes, rent of incall site. This can add up...not sure but I could guess maybe $20k per year or more? I'm going to assume that many of you ladies are good tax payers so in this case we'll say the 20k is deductable so adding base rates and other deductions, you have 90k - 20k = 70k of which maybe 35k is taxable income. So how does a $60k per year take home pay sound? So then we get into the actual hours worked. This is where my guesswork is pretty vague. If I were going to guess, I might say another hour per client for set-up and take-down, communications, etc. Someone might be able to give a better estimate. This takes us to 20 hours per week. The real kicker is the time spent communicating with others. Now I kind of hope some ladies might help me out. How much time per week do you spend dealing with email, calls, texts, etc.? It seems like your evenings and weekends must be the busiest times which is kind of a bummer for a social life. Would you say for most of you that this is a full time job? Does it occupy a full 40 hours a week or more? I'm wondering what the real hourly rate works out to. Maybe us guys won't think this is so expensive if we knew how hard you ladies really work.

Philosophical discussion time. I expected to feel a certain way about going to providers. I'm married but I can't get sex so I'm forced to pay for it. Even if I wasn't married, based on past experience, I probably wouldn't have much luck either. So I pay. I pay rather a lot of money when you think about how much of other types of entertainment cost per hour. Two or three visits is a years gym membership. Five or six is a week at an all-inclusive. But I don't feel bad. I don't feel like a failure as a man, a pathetic person who can't get laid except because he has money in his wallet. After a magic session with a wonderful lady I feel fantastic. My self esteem is through the roof. I've had a session which wasn't so great that left me with buyers remorse and feeling a bit bad but mostly, it's just awesome. Why? It doesn't make sense to me. I'm so happy that I can afford to spend time with hot sexy women who would never have time for me in the real world that the fact that it's a business transaction doesn't bother me at all. I almost feel like I'd rather do this than bother with the pain and hassle of real relationships.

Maybe I'll need to hire you for stamina training. Redseductress: "Alright private, we're going for 20 reps this time. Move it boy! Are you a man or a mouse?" mister_crufty: "Hehehe...so...very....awesome!"

Interesting. I had one less than stellar session that I had mentioned in one of my stories here (without naming names). I looked her up on the other site and what do you know? Page after page of people who had a very similar experience to me. So it wasn't me or a YMMV thing. That makes me feel a lot better actually. I'm still new to the hobby so I'm often worried I've done something wrong. I think I won't make that mistake again. You're all right that reviews should be taken with a grain of salt (on both sites) but I agree that having multiple resources available is a good thing. Additional Comments: Wow, even more cool. I looked up everyone I've seen so far (it's a short list) and all the other site reviews are just like my experience. It would seem that I've been very lucky to meet some pretty awesome women so far. I just hope Taylor Monroe forgives me for all my craziness when I first was getting into the hobby. She was obviously a little more than I could handle for my first time. :-D

There is a very simple way to tell if a lady is not 'good' whatever that means. Chances are, if she's awesome, someone will have said something about her on this board. If there are no reviews of her here, I would say, buyer beware. Me, I'm a big fan of the positivity here. I think it's lousy that some clients would try to use reviews as a bludgeon against providers who might be perfectly fine when it's really the client who is a douchebag. Not to say that an SP couldn't be a douche-baguette too (see what I did there?) but chances are, if she's got some nice reviews here, she's probably a-ok as long as you treat her well.

Yes, yes you do. And you have simply the best ass...seriously. The things I would do to that, you have no idea!! ;-) Ha...you probably do have an idea don't you? Naughty girl!

Testify!! Cleo, you are absolutely amazing in that area. I'm so glad to know you love it because I almost felt bad that I might have been abusing your mouth! xoxox

What is this other board people keep speaking of? Can someone PM me the URL please? I feel like an experience would have to be pretty awful (ie. scary, dangerous, seriously misleading) before I would ever say anything unkind though.

It's your profile pic. Makes you seem all angry and stuff. ;-)

I wouldn't say I have "yellow fever" (is that an offensive term?) or any particular race based fetish. I'm like Stephen Colbert... I don't see color. ;-) I just love beautiful women. Personality wins in the end every time though and it's really hard for that to cross a language barrier. Not impossible I think but challenging. BTW, it wasn't just wiping after a bj... it was constant. Too much sweat, too much lube, too much saliva... Girl was throwing Kleenex like confetti. It was almost funny but it really gave the impression that she found everything about it gross. When I'm having sexy time, if I have a spare hand I like to give a little reach around. Give a little extra simulation. Usually I'll give my fingers a bit of a lick so as not to be rubbing anything raw. Well! "Ewww..no!", she goes, reaching for more Kleenex, and I'm thinking, "damn girl, I just spent 15 minutes licking that thing and now you're worried about a little spit?" :-D I'm looking back and laughing now but at the time it was hard not to feel a little dirty and ashamed.

Personally, I'm an all inclusive kind of guy. A la carte doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't even like extras like Greek etc. but I understand their purpose. At least with those it's discussed in advance and paid up front so as not to interfere with the flow of the session. I want my hour to feel intimate and natural. These are women godammit, not vending machines!

I suppose these 15 minute specials might be alright for me but what am I going to do for the last 10? Bwahaha! Snort... I keel me.