Contoversy. Should PM rethink refugee promise?

[Hector17 9215]

unless you believe that all Muslims, or all Syrians must be terrorists. Again the "racist card" but I can't see it any other way.

 

That's what people say when they have no, or little, knowledge of history.

I did not make this next statement up, but it is food for thought...

 

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims"

[Mikeyboy 27111]

That's what people say when they have no, or little, knowledge of history.

I did not make this next statement up, but it is food for thought...

 

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims"

 

.....all terrorists are Muslims? !!!!!!!! There are some in Northern Ireland who might disagree with that statement. Is that a real quote or did you make that up to try to sound insightful? You failed to validate it by attributing it to anyone.

[Hector17 9215]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

 

Please do some research on history....

No I didn't make it up, but it is profound

 

My position, based on history and recent events , is only that SAFETY must be put first. It's not an emotional thing, unless fear of having safety compromised is included.

[Exotic Touch Danielle 31676]

I'm sorry but I thought this topic was open for discussion and everyone respecting each others opinions...saying someone is racist because they don't agree with it is just wrong

Smh

[Hector17 9215]

 

This a "Coles Notes" history of 1400 + years by a victim of terrorism.

If you have 20 minutes to spare it is quite informative, and powerful.

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, especially when one makes sweeping generalizations. That's not intolerance, merely a straight observation in many cases.

 

I do think some statements need to be challenged, otherwise what is the point of debate. Like saying all terrorists are Muslim. That depends on your definition of terrorism. Was Pablo Escobar Muslim? Is any drug lord responsible for the murders and terror of countless thousands of Mexican citizens Muslim? They certainly practice terrorism as I define it. Was Anders Breivik who killed 92 children Muslim? No, in fact I believe they would identify as Christian. I could go on and on and on and on...

 

We need to be courageous, especially when we are fearful. That is when courage matters most.

[Mikeyboy 27111]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

 

Please do some research on history....

No I didn't make it up, but it is profound

 

My position, based on history and recent events , is only that SAFETY must be put first. It's not an emotional thing, unless fear of having safety compromised is included.

 

Being able to find Wikipedia does not make you knowledgeable on any topic, and yes I understand more about the history of this region than your average person, although admittedly am not an expert. What I do know is that there are several different parties battling for control, being backed by even bigger powers like the US and Russia. This battle ground has become a big game of chess for the world powers to flex their muscle with the big winner being icis (sweeping in amid the chaos) and the big losers being the citizens trying to survive in a four way battle ground. In the middle of of all of this, some manage to escape with their families just to have the world turn their backs on them. What happened in Paris should have proven how evil icis is and how badly their victems need our help. Not that Muslims can't be trusted.

[Grass_Hopper 18263]

1. Can we tag a certain group of people (this case: Muslims or Arabic people) by the acts of only a small amount of members of that group?

No.

And the rest of that group shouldn't suffer like this, and no society should have to endures such horrors.

2. With all that's going on, do Canada really wants to mingle with politics and religions that don't even meet our system of valor?

Who are we to determine how to react? That's not our buisness.

3. Going over there, get them out and bring them here, I'm affraid of the reaction of some very powerful countries.

 

I am not ready to sacrifice my ''peaceful life'' for, probably, in the end, benefit the terrorists...

[Mikeyboy 27111]

I have to apologize. Clearly I am passionate on this topic. Normally I avoid controversial topics in this site. I can get carried away with a topic once engaged. (It's been a rough day, I lost an old friend today so my filters are down. ) The opinions are mine, but the tone is out of character for me.

 

Bowing out gracefully from this thread now. All the best.

Mike

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

I have to apologize. Clearly I am passionate on this topic. Normally I avoid controversial topics in this site. I can get carried away with a topic once engaged. (It's been a rough day, I lost an old friend today so my filters are down. ) The opinions are mine, but the tone is out of character for me.

 

Bowing out gracefully from this thread now. All the best.

Mike

 

I thought you were very civil and passionate. Sorry to hear about your friend, Mike.

 

One other thing some other posters may ignore when citing a desire to keep our way of life here... my aboriginal friends would call it hypocrisy.

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

Since 2001 748 000 refugees have been admitted to the U.S. Of those, three have been implicated in terrorist activities. Three. In fifteen years. Statistically, the chance of a refugee being involved in terrorist activity is /lower/ than that of the general population.

 

I've been involved in sponsoring refugee families to Canada and plan to be again. Their children are indistinguishable from ours; they have the same potentials, and hopes and innocence. No one with a functioning sense of compassion should be able to meet them, and not want to intervene.

 

I've met some, personally, and could no more refuse to protect them when they are in imminent danger( and they have lived for YEARS in that state) than a child of my own.

 

Canada may or may not follow through on its commitment to rescue the victims of the horror that is happening in the Middle East. I could not sleep with a clear conscience if I did less than everything I was capable of to help.

 

I'm not accountable for what my country does, though I'll vote and lobby for what I think is right. I am accountable for what I do, and if I can intervene to help one person, damn straight I will.

 

Yes, this is close to my heart.

[Phaedrus 209521]

That's what people say when they have no, or little, knowledge of history.

I did not make this next statement up, but it is food for thought...

 

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims"

 

Bullshit.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but that's the only way to describe this. It's especially ironic that you accuse others of having little or no knowledge of history.

 

Off the top of my head, without actually bothering to look anything up, here's a few people and organisations that you seem to have little or no knowledge about. There's the IRA, ETA, 17N, and the Red Army Faction. There's FARC and Sendero Luminoso. There's Aum Shinriko, the LTTE (who invented suicide-bombing; did you know that?) and Babbar Khalsa. There's the ANC and Nelson Mandela (yep, they were considered terrorists in the past). And in the US we've had Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, and pretty much every lunatic who's perpetrated a mass-shooting who you'd undoubtedly call a terrorist if they happened to be called Mohammed.

 

That's just a very quick list, without research, and cherry-picking an example or two from each corner of the globe. I'm sure it could be greatly expanded with a little effort if anyone can be bothered, but I think it serves to prove the point that there have been and remain a great many terrorists who aren't Muslim.

[Amber Rose 19012]

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims"

That's....not even slightly accurate at all.

Posted via Mobile Device

[Ice4fun 78396]

Should we move forward with Syrian Refuges?

 

I would hope we would... the courage to take the right action even in the face of uncertainty or fear is the type of decision that builds the character of a great nation... in my life time Canada has been faced with this type of question in the face of fear and uncertainty several times... I am thinking of the Vietnamese boat people and the refuges of Kosavo in both cases public opinion was against allowing the refuges into Canada... they would bring crime and terror, their values were different, they would take our jobs, the economy was bad and we should look after our own but thankfully our leaders at those times knew that we as a country had a responsibility to think bigger than the moment...to provide leadership in a moment of doubt and fear... in both of these instances the reality has shown that the fears and rhetoric of the day was unfounded ... we need that leadership again today... in fact Canada needs to step up and demonstrate to some of our allies like the US what real leadership looks like.

 

Of course we can choose to look only Inward and focus on what we incorrectly think are our interest we can let fear control our decisions and in so doing give the terrorists exactly what they want... we know what that looks like because we did just that as a country when we turned back a boat full of Jewish people from Europe who were looking to escape the holocaust... we didn't step up and do the right thing and now we look back in shame at our actions... we know what is right and it's nice to see we have the leadership to proceed.

 

Just my Opinion

[mrgreen760 37785]

Turns out that the 25,000 by Xmas wasn't achievable after all and really never was. On social media and in some editorials those who voiced caution and suggested an initial slow down to more realistic numbers were shouted down as racist redneck bigots a charge which I believe was leveled by Kathryn Wynne at Brad Wall who in fact called it. An interesting turn of events as I expect that the issue focused grouped really during the election cycle and not as quite as well after Paris. Time will tell if the other 15,000 will be here by Valentines Day.

 

And lets not lose sight that prior to the tragic front page photo of the young boy who had drowned there had been little or no concern raised in this country about Syrian refugees or any other refugees for that matter.

 

Peace

MG

[overdone 273]

and as our new rightly anointed sperm leader says

 

it's the environment stupid!

 

how is bringing in 25,000 more insatiable people going to help?

 

not to mention the 2-300,000 we've been bringing in for the last 10+yrs?

 

you can't have it both ways

 

they will all eventually need a furnace, a toilet, food, electricity, want a car, cellphone, ect........

 

migration isn't going to solve the fact that there are 5 billion too many people on the planet

 

we've went from 1 billion to over 7 in just over 100+ yrs

 

like someone mentioned, resources, more people, less pie, can't make more earth

 

we can't have 5 billion living the lifestyle we live in the rest of the world

 

it's time to cull the herd, like it or not, cause wind/water/solar are never going to be enough to satiate the wants

 

not that most of the world is going to stop burning coal/gas/oil despite what our delusional politicians do here

 

more people/growth/growth, isn't the answer

 

if it was why don't you move to China/India?

 

Suzuki is a hypocrite, but he got one thing right, we don't need more people in Canada, would say it's full like him, but, it isn't necessary, nor going to help

 

it's time to let the middle east solve their own problems, they are more than capable

 

Saudi's, Qatar, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, ......

 

could take in all the Syrians

 

it's time to start looking after who's here, Natives/Northerners, mentally ill, impoverished children, ect....

 

then send all your after tax dollars to the UN, just stop sending everyone else's without their OK, like our new rightly sperm leader who's put us back, like we ever went anywhere

 

help them over there, don't want to do that, then just turn the channel

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

This may be the worst sentiment I've seen expressed on an otherwise friendly if controversial thread.

 

I can't count how many times over the last year I've heard variations on this argument: "We can't/won't/ aren't solving this/that global/specific problem so therefore we should do nothing to help refugees.

 

Yes, the world is a messed up place, and yes the future is uncertain, and yes we have problems here at home. How on earth is that a justification for not intervening in a specific situation to alleviate the suffering of a specific group of people? We have the resources, the space, and the human power to look after the 25 000 without question. We should, period.

 

If I see someone hurt in a car crash at the side of the road, I don't think, well yes but people die in car wrecks every day and I can't solve that problem, and there are too many people on the road, and, really, this guy's OWN family should be helping him...

 

I'm aware of the need, have the ability to help and I'm here. Compassion demands that I try to help. It's as simple as that to me.

[Ice4fun 78396]

Turns out that the 25,000 by Xmas wasn't achievable after all and really never was. On social media and in some editorials those who voiced caution and suggested an initial slow down to more realistic numbers were shouted down as racist redneck bigots a charge which I believe was leveled by Kathryn Wynne at Brad Wall who in fact called it. An interesting turn of events as I expect that the issue focused grouped really during the election cycle and not as quite as well after Paris. Time will tell if the other 15,000 will be here by Valentines Day.

 

And lets not lose sight that prior to the tragic front page photo of the young boy who had drowned there had been little or no concern raised in this country about Syrian refugees or any other refugees for that matter.

 

Peace

MG

 

Frankly I always thought t December time frame was unworkable... I saw it as a political decision during an election and expected that it would slip and you know I am ok with that slippage let's face it support agencies for refugees had been saying all along that they could not handle so many so fast.

 

I have no problem with the calls by people for the government to be prudent and process the refugees is a timely fashion however that is way different then the calls we have heard since the attacks in Paris to delay for safety and security reasons and the calls to not help because all the Muslims are terrorists or to let them solve their own problems suggesting that refugees who are running from the terror are somehow to blame for being a victim. The reality of this is that th facts show us that refugees integrate very well into the countries who help them and who they feel a debt to...There is no link between terrorists and refugees it's a myth used to perpetuate fear. No terrorist is gonna sit in a refugee camp for year waiting waiting to be scrutinized by the UN and then Canadian security when the reality is that fake passports can be bought and used to travel to Canada as a visitor...if we want to "cull the herd" or not want them here because they are too different then let's at least admit we are uncaring bigots and stop trying to pretend we are just doing what is right. Let's remember that very few of us can claim to be native to north America most of our ancestors came h to get away from some type of repression and get a better life... what exactly makes a human from Syria any different.

 

It not important to get them here by December it is important to get started

[Mikeyboy 27111]

Rick Mercer always has a great way of summing things up simply:

 

[rollhay 1215]

Yup. Rick sums it up for me. End of discussion ,I hope.

[Ice4fun 78396]

The following is a a speech by the Governor General at a forum on welcoming Syrian refugees on Dec 1st

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-johnston/syrian-refugees-canada_b_8694166.html

 

Welcoming Syrian Refugees Will Be A Defining Moment For Canada

 

I delivered this speech at the opening of the Forum on Welcoming Syrian Refugees to Canada, an event that encouraged a coordinated effort from all sectors to respond to the Syrian crisis.

 

December 1, 2015Rideau Hall, Ottawa

 

I begin by acknowledging that this important event is taking place on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Nation.

 

Welcome, all of you, to this forum on welcoming Syrian refugees to Canada. This forum is about much more than that, in fact. It's about living up to who we are as Canadians.

 

Vincent Massey, the first Canadian-born governor general, said:

 

"Nations achieve character in crises... [and] it is of such moments in history that nations seem ... to say to themselves, 'I live for something. For what? What do I value above all...?'"

 

The Syrian refugee crisis is one such moment for our nation today. It compels us to ask:

 

What is our character?

What do we live for?

What do we revere above all?

 

The moment has once again come to answer those questions. This is a moment to reaffirm our fundamental values as Canadians. To test the depth of our commitment to diversity, inclusiveness and tolerance.

To show our willingness and ability to help children, women, men--whole families--in desperate need.

This is a defining moment for Canada, a defining moment for all of us.

 

And it's even more than that.

 

It's an opportunity. Great nations are built on great challenges. An opportunity to mobilize our communities, from St. John's to Winnipeg to the Lower Mainland of British Columbia--and so many points between. To re-imagine how we take care of the most marginalized and vulnerable among us.

 

To stand together as a smart and caring country that believes in and fights for equality of opportunity for every single one of us. All of you participating in this forum today understand that welcoming Syrian refugees is both a challenge and an opportunity for Canada.

 

And you know this too:

 

Great nations are built on great challenges.

 

Each of you is a leader, whether in the public or private sector or in civil society. Each of you is dedicated to settling and integrating refugees. And each of you knows how important this work is, and that we must engage individual Canadians in the effort.

 

I know we'll succeed, because the cause and the company are very good.

 

Let me tell you a story about the wonderful opportunity that lies before us. Four years ago, I led a delegation of highly accomplished Canadians on State visits to Malaysia, Vietnam and Singapore. And an extraordinary thing happened on that trip. It was a moment that reminds you what a great country Canada is.

 

This story has two main actors: Perrin Beatty, who is with us today, and Kim Thúy, who unfortunately could not be here. Perrin and Kim were part of that delegation in 2011 because of their impressive achievements and expertise:

Perrin, as head of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce;

Kim, the Governor General's Award-winning author of the novel Ru, as a cultural ambassador to her homeland, Vietnam. But what the two of them only realized at the outset of our visits was that their paths had intersected years ago, in 1979, in very different circumstances.

As a child, Kim had fled from Vietnam to Malaysia as one of thousands of "boat people." And along with members of her family, she would sit outside the Canadian high commission in Kuala Lumpur every day, hoping that her dream would be realized. Her dream of coming to Canada. At that time, Perrin was serving as a young cabinet minister in Prime Minister Joe Clark's government that was working to bring large numbers of Vietnamese refugees to Canada. Along with thousands of his fellow Canadians, Perrin and his government helped make Kim's dream come true. Today, she's one of our finest authors, and there they were in 2011 on a State visit together, representing their country at the highest diplomatic level.

So this story highlights some basic, wonderful truths about Canada.

 

One, we're stronger when we work together.

Two, diversity is one of our strengths.

And three, despite our many backgrounds and cultures of origin -- more than 200 languages spoken, more than 200 ethnic origins -- we all have a great deal in common.

We call that great deal Canada.

 

"So how do we do it?". That was the question German chancellor Angela Merkel asked me when she visited Rideau Hall in the summer of 2012.

 

Chancellor Merkel wanted to know how Canada had built such a successful society out of people from all over the world. As you may know, Germany is expecting to welcome one million refugees. Just think about that: one million refugees.

 

So her question -- "How does Canada do it?" -- was anything but abstract. Indeed, it's fast becoming one of the critical questions of our time. And it's why you're here today. To help us find a Canadian answer to that question in our current context.

 

Fortunately, no doubt in part because of our vast geography and challenging climate, the theme of interdependence has always been at the core of what it means to be Canadian. A warm Canadian welcome in a cold Canadian winter -- what could be more fitting?

Perhaps this is why we have answered the call for help so often and so readily--in welcoming more than 60,000 Vietnamese boat people in 1979 and 1980 for example. And why history has judged us so harshly when we have failed to heed that call.

 

Of course, our history of welcome predates the existence of Canada itself. The settlers at Port Royal, in what is now Nova Scotia, would never have survived their first winters in the early 1600s were it not for the generosity and guidance of Indigenous peoples.

 

Our history is full of such stories of diverse people helping each other through hard times. Like those early settlers, many Syrian refugees will be arriving in winter.

 

A warm Canadian welcome in a cold Canadian winter--what could be more fitting?

 

Canada's diverse, tolerant, multicultural society is one of our great strengths and perhaps our greatest contribution to the world. That's why it's so important that we succeed in welcoming refugees. Again, what could be more fitting?

 

That, and simply because it's the right thing to do.

Once again, we'll meet the challenge, we'll do what's right.

 

We must have an open and engaged discussion here today; and we must connect and form the networks that will allow us to multiply our effectiveness.

 

I'm looking forward to your participation in today's panels and discussions. The talent and energy in this room are truly impressive.

 

Let's use them to ensure the newest members of our Canadian family receive a warm welcome and have every chance of success in their new country. Let's live up to who we are as Canadians by tackling this challenge, seizing this opportunity. Let's work together and meet this defining moment for our country head-on.

[Hector17 9215]

it's time to let the middle east solve their own problems, they are more than capable

 

Saudi's, Qatar, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, ......

 

could take in all the Syrians

 

it's time to start looking after who's here, Natives/Northerners, mentally ill, impoverished children, ect....

 

 

 

help them over there, don't want to do that, then just turn the channel

 

Like,or dislike this post, it is something to ponder when other Muslim countries close their borders to, and will not even accept their fellow followers.

 

Unfortunately another 14 die at the hands of what is appearing to be yet another attack by a "Radical Islamist" this week in California...

[Guest st*****ens**ors]

There are currently about 4.7 million registered Syrian refugees.

 

Of those, about 2.2 million are in Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon.

An additional 1.9 million are in Turkey.

 

The problem is, these countries lack the resources to do much more than provide basic shelter in refugee camps. They can't possibly accommodate so many as permanent residents, and supplies are getting thin as NGO's run out of resources.

 

Let's not have any more nonsense about Muslim countries not carrying their share of the load. Canada is planning to accept 25 000 this year, or one 76th of the refugees that are being accommodated by Turkey alone.

 

Of course we have other needs that need to be met domestically, but governments can meet multiple challenges at the same time. It's not either/or.

 

This is a defining moment for Canada. We can be a nation defined by compassion, or we can be so blinkered by our inability to distinguish between the perpetrators of violence and the //victims// fleeing them that we turn our back on one of the most desperate humanitarian crises that will happen in our generation, and excuse ourselves with the worn out rag of "but what about our own problems?"

[Ice4fun 78396]

it's time to let the middle east solve their own problems, they are more than capable

 

Saudi's, Qatar, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, ......

 

could take in all the Syrians

 

it's time to start looking after who's here, Natives/Northerners, mentally ill, impoverished children, ect....

 

 

 

help them over there, don't want to do that, then just turn the channel

 

Like,or dislike this post, it is something to ponder when other Muslim countries close their borders to, and will not even accept their fellow followers.

 

Unfortunately another 14 die at the hands of what is appearing to be yet another attack by a "Radical Islamist" this week in California...

 

As the Internet and technology makes the world a smaller and smaller place it is amazing that we can see the struggles of other humans and suggest that because they don't look like us or speak our language or worship the same as us then we should care less about their safety in the face of Evil....

 

I imagine that during the second world War while Jewish men women and children were being rounded up tortured and slaughter in mass Graves and gas chambers it was just as easy to say they are different from us... their problems are not our problems.... let the countries of Europe look after them we have our own issues...

 

Frankly in my opinion this is a crock of bullshit... Let's not pretend that we can't help for financial reason or because we need to solve social problems here in Canada lets resolve as a people to do both... Let's take up the challenge of leadership and actually be that country in the world who both talks the talk and walks the walk.

 

I ask you if this type of conflict came to your homeland and your family was in danger would you want other countries to come forward to help get you to safety... yes of course you would.

 

If we choose not to do this it's not because we can't.... it's not because it places us in danger.... it's not because other countries in the area won't help.. it's because we are too selfish to help... plain and simple it's because we don't care that innocent men women and children will die...

 

Just my Opinion

[bellafan 11341]

First, I think the Trudeau government did well to extend the timeline to bring refugees to Canada. Too often governments get wrapped up in their own egos and do stupid things.

 

Second, I think it is true that some very, very rich Muslim nations are falling disgracefully short in helping their Muslim brothers and sisters, notably Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.