Negotiating

[canuckhooker 19202]

Funny thing is, the ladies who have posted and seem strongly against negotiation. I'd actually love to hear from some ladies who actually support negotiation.

And I may be wrong but other ladies would respect that because as is phrased one ladies business model may not work for another lady

But for you saying ladies welcome negotiation, well I take that with a lot of skepticism. If some ladies post and say they welcome it, that's another story.

RG

 

Go back and read my previous post on how some (many) providers make this service into a commodity. You can look at this through "rose coloured" glasses all you want, you can claim it is such a different service that normal market forces and practices don't apply, but the minute the people providing the service turn it into a commodity that argument goes out the window.

 

For example how many providers have a disclaimer like this on their site: "This website and the information contained therein do not in any way imply sexual services. Money exchanged is for companionship only and anything beyond that is a choice made between two consenting adults." Yeah, really nice and idealistic. Then you go into the website and you see services described, Greek for $20 extra, BBBJ pay $30 more, no watersports etc etc, then it becomes clear that despite the nice "companionship only" disclaimer, what is being sold is sexual services. As much as many would like to think otherwise, that is the truth.

 

And then there are the "half hour specials", Canada Day specials, two for ones, not a clock watcher etc. etc. The only thing missing is the flashing blue light and the "Attention K-Mart shoppers" announcement on the PA. (sorry for the dated reference but I am sure some will get it)

 

So the SP has a choice. They can advertise "no negotiating", or they can say it when they communicate, and if the potential client tries to negotiate then you politely end the conversation and put them on the "do no see" list. The problem is again, is that some will not do that. They will argue, try and get the customer to see the error of his ways etc. Why? Because they don't want to lose the business. For lack of a better term, they want to "make the sale". And you know what, both the potential client and the provider are just doing what is human nature. There is nothing wrong with it, just a fact of life and of doing business.

[PistolPete 61421]

Just to add, a little remark. Some ladies that may have a web site, may not have longer appointments (3-4 hours) remarked in their information for rates. When I ask about the longer rates I might get back "I never have been asked for a longer appointment,does $$$ sound okay? "

 

So in my mind there is a part of a negotiation happening, and those that don't have a web site, may only advertise the 1 or 2 hour rate, and the gent has to ask that question, that is a start of a discussion and negotiation, not that I ever had try and wiggle her rates off what she wants to charge, but it has open the floor for discussion.

[Guest Ot**w***og****n]

This makes perfect sense as there is some deviation beyond the norm. She still sets the rate and I can take it or leave it. Your point has merit though.

 

Just to add, a little remark. Some ladies that may have a web site, may not have longer appointments (3-4 hours) remarked in their information for rates. When I ask about the longer rates I might get back "I never have been asked for a longer appointment,does $$$ sound okay? "

 

So in my mind there is a part of a negotiation happening, and those that don't have a web site, may only advertise the 1 or 2 hour rate, and the gent has to ask that question, that is a start of a discussion and negotiation, not that I ever had try and wiggle her rates off what she wants to charge, but it has open the floor for discussion.

[lipualipua 4704]

@OttawaBoogieman: You wrote :"This makes perfect sense as there is some deviation beyond the norm"

 

This is what I have been arguing all along.

[Annessa 22743]

yes but leave it up to a lady to set her lower price if she WANTS to (eg. longer dates, or her end of the month special etc.) but dont ASK for a lower rate.

 

I'm not sure why we're still debating this?....I'm out as well

[Elle Diablo 1345]

@Emily Rushton: you wrote:" I never altered my rate and it was never a problem, so don't go telling these girls that they should change their donation to reflect the lower economic standing in a city, that is complete bullshit."

 

First, no insults. Second, where did I write about "lower economic standing in a city"? Third, you clearly misunderstood my point - when I specifically ask a lady to drop all she is doing and come see me in Kingston from another city, negotiating is unavoidable.

 

Additional Comments:

It appears that the word "negotiate" elicits feelings of horror in some people. Negotiate need not be a "dirty" word. Let us consult Merriam-Webster for its definition:

 

Definition of NEGOTIATE

intransitive verb

: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter

transitive verb

: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise <negotiate a treaty>

Examples of NEGOTIATE

1. The customer wanted to negotiate over the price.

2. We negotiated a fair price.

 

I have chosen those definitions and examples that are pertinent to our debate. Now, is there an inherent negativity residing in any of the definitions and examples given above?

I must emphasise that I am talking of a situation where a lady in a city different from mine packs a certain anatomical feature that attracts me so powerfully that I can hardly contain myself(lol). I therefore respectfully ask her to drop everything she is doing and come see me in Kingston. Under such a condition, negotiating( in a TRUE sense of the word) is unavoidable.

 

 

I agree, the word negotiate need not be a dirty word, but by using a sensitive perspective with regards to what ladies have to tolerate in an industry meant to provide pleasure and caring anyone with an ounce of empathy would understand why the word would make one cringe.

 

I think the statement "to negotiate" elicits feelings of horror in some working girls imaginations is, perhaps, because to negotiate is somewhat easily comparable to patronizing the common 'streetwalker' wherein negotiation can mean the difference between eating or not; being beaten or not. I am certain that most females who work independently or through an agency, like myself, think of themselves as a different breed with different working conditions and expect to be treated as such.

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

I have gone thru all of the responses. I have calculated each persons input, and put them to a spreadsheet. I only counted each persons response once to avoid double entries. Here is what I have found.

 

Total number of responses 54

Providers responses 25

Hobbyists responses 29

 

Providers saying no to this 23

Providers saying yes to this 2

 

Hobbyists saying no to this 24

Hobbyists saying yes to this 5

 

Total saying No to this 47

Total saying yes to this 7

 

So, if my math is correct (and I will be the first to admit if I am wrong).

 

Total % of Providers saying no 92%

Total % of Providers saying yes 8%

 

Total % of Hobbyists saying no 83%

Total % of Hobbyists saying yes 13%

 

Total of all respondents saying no 87%

Total of all respondents saying yes 13%

 

So, keep debating this one. This is an issue that unless you are the one providing the service, you will never truly understand. We can try to help you to understand, but if you choose to stop listening, and only do the talking, and trying to convince others why your answer is correct and the majority clearly state it is not correct, you will continue chasing your own tail.

 

By the way, to the one who is sending out the following email to several providers, cute:

 

Hey sexy, love your pics. What does $20 get me?

[lipualipua 4704]

@meaghanmcleod : You wrote :...... and trying to convince others why your answer is correct and the majority clearly state it is not correct, you will continue chasing your own tail."

 

I wouldn't put much faith in the results you have presented on account of sample size and mode of data collection. My guess is that 54 is too small a number ( compared to total number of CERRBites and even of more significance, the responses are not secret. Some, both SPs and hobbyists, give the politically correct comments because this is an open forum.

[Guest Ot**w***og****n]

As I said she still sets the rate though which I can take or leave. I'm not about to counter-offer. I'm gone!

 

 

@OttawaBoogieman: You wrote :"This makes perfect sense as there is some deviation beyond the norm"

 

This is what I have been arguing all along.

[roamingguy 300292]

@meaghanmcleod : You wrote :...... and trying to convince others why your answer is correct and the majority clearly state it is not correct, you will continue chasing your own tail."

 

I wouldn't put much faith in the results you have presented on account of sample size and mode of data collection. My guess is that 54 is too small a number ( compared to total number of CERRBites and even of more significance, the responses are not secret. Some, both SPs and hobbyists, give the politically correct comments because this is an open forum.

 

Pretty presumptuous of you to chalk up the responses given as given because it is a open forum and respondents giving politically correct responses

Politically correct has nothing to do with my responses at all, I suspect for most it has no bearing. But now that you mention it, maybe by suggesting it, it is a way for others to rationalize their viewpoint, by reducing other viewpoints to just being politically correct and nothing

more

RG

[lipualipua 4704]

@roamingguy : You wrote :"Pretty presumptuous of you to chalk up the responses given as given because it is a open forum and respondents giving politically correct responses"

 

Please don't take this personally. I was speaking ( or precisely) writing with lessons from Statistics 101 in mind. Thus though her conclusions are valid, they may not be accurate or correct.

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

But then again, they are as accurate as most polls...only those who participate truly have a voice in said poll and therefor we can never truly know how the majority feels. I do, however, agree with your comment.

[lipualipua 4704]

@megforfun: You wrote: ...."only those who participate truly have a voice in said poll and therefor we can never truly know how the majority feels"

 

You do have a point. We seldom know the real truth about any affair through polling. We can only approximate it and this is why statisticians use highly rigorous methods - the more rigorous the method, the closer the truth is approximated.

[roamingguy 300292]

All Meaghan did was quantify the results of the posts on this thread, she didn't conduct a scientific study on negotiating nor claim to conduct a scientific study on negotiating

RG

[cyclo 30131]

Negotiating is one of my professional areas of expertise (large construction and/or service contracts, sponsorships, labour contracts etc.). Most (not all) of what is being described and discussed in this thread is better characterized as haggling or asking for a price discount, not true negotiation.

 

Negotiation involves an exchange of interests, building a relationship for the future and multiple variables that can be grouped in different ways to create value for both parties. Sp services would be akin to personal/consulting services contracts. In these service contracts hourly rates are not negotiated. What is negotiated is how much time, effort and quality is expected in the service provided or product delivered. Even then, there is a service threshold below which a company will not go just to obtain revenue. This is because the quality of service will be below their standards and will affect their reputation and future business. With the exception of a Sugar Daddy arrangement, there doesn't seem to be much room for an sp to negotiate the quality and quantity of service while maintaining their service standards and hourly fee.

 

Here are a few examples of discount, haggling and negotiating.

 

Price Discount

A price discount usually involves a percentage or flat fee discount off the usual price in an attempt to increase volume (e.g. summer specials, early bird discount). The seller sets the discount rate, announces its terms and the length of time it's available. Some sp's advertise these discounts. Others may provide price discounts if they have received a retainer (cash in advance) for multiple sessions. The client doesn't "negotiate" you pay the advertised special rate.

 

Haggling

Haggling works for sellers when there is no posted price or the posted price is higher than what they normally accept. The seller tries to get the maximum amount of money from each client. (Think Moroccan market). The client asks the price or offers an amount. The seller responds with a price which is higher than they were offered and is in fact higher than what they usually accept. Back and forth for a while. An unsophisticated client will pay more than others. So gentlemen, be careful what you ask for! In addition in an Internet age the various prices will get around and damage the sp's business. Some men will be upset they paid more than others, while others will now only pay the lowest price they've seen quoted by other clients.

 

Haggling works for a purchaser when the price is fixed but there are overhead costs (e.g delivery, installation etc) which are built into the business and the seller has some flexibility to "negotiate " those costs. While sp's have overhead costs, there aren't a whole lot of flexible costs that they can discount, without it coming directly out of their purse. I suppose if you wanted to try their make up on, they might indulge that for no extra charge lol. But don't touch their shoes or stockings lol

 

Forbes magazine describes haggling as short-sighted "Which is emotionally charged, combative... that leads to low-quality solutions and results in lose-lose outcomes."

 

Negotiation

 

Here's an example of defining the terms of a Sugar Daddy relationship which involves true negotiation, but which I don't believe can apply to a 30 minute to multi-hour appointment with an sp.

 

A client approaches an sp about formalizing a Sugar Daddy relationship. They discuss whether it will be an exclusive relationship, the net income the sp expects to make, the frequency and type of services which will be provided. How much payment will be cash and how much will be Value in Kind (e.g. housing, grooming, clothes, travel etc). How much cash income does the sp need (car payments, tuition, entertainment etc.)

 

Let's take one element, housing. Maybe the Sugar Daddy offers a high end condo that he owns to offset some of his cash fees to the sp. Maybe the sp doesn't want to move. Maybe if she moves, she wants a lease to guarantee a one year occupancy and 2 months notice in case the relationship doesn't work out. Maybe the Suggar Daddy wants to assign a $3000/month market value to the condo as part of his cash and Value in Kind offer. The sp responds that even if it's worth $3000, since she's only paying $1000 a month rent now, she can't afford to lose an additional $2000 income just to live in greater luxury.

 

My point is that there's a complexity to "negotiations". There are lots of variables in play. Each party describes their interests, but they also try to understand the other party's interests and satisfy them. They also want to build a long term relationship with a win/win solution. Asking for a discount on a one hour session or offering the $200 bucks you've got is not negotiation.

 

Personally

 

Personally, although I'm very comfortable negotiating, I don't try to negotiate, haggle or ask for a discount from service providers. I understand, accept and appreciate that the service providers I see, and most of those posting in this thread, operate on a fixed price model which is common for most goods and services in North America. Just accept and respect that.

 

On a lighter note... If you've made it this far. When I typed "Maybe the Sugar Daddy offers a high end condo" autocorrect changed "condo" to "condom" lol

[Meg O'Ryan 266444]

Thank you soooo much cyclo. I apologize to all for using the wrong terminology and am quite happy that most of you understood me even if I were not eloquent enough to get my point across as completely as cyclo!

 

Over and out with smiles on my face!

[cyclo 30131]

Thank you soooo much cyclo. I apologize to all for using the wrong terminology and am quite happy that most of you understood me even if I were not eloquent enough to get my point across as completely as cyclo!

 

Over and out with smiles on my face!

 

I understood what you meant Meg. I thought now might be a good time to introduce the terminology since so many examples of each had been presented in the thread. Plus, since this thread was raging like a brush fire it took me a while to get up to speed and organize my thoughts.

 

Have a nice weekend!

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Thank you Cyclo. Again, you have taken all the issues everyone is trying to convey, and clearly and articulated this into a reply that I am really hoping gets those to understand what I have been trying to convey.

 

You are a true gem. Thanks! xoxo

[lipualipua 4704]

@Cyclo : you wrote: ....."there doesn't SEEM to be much room for an sp to negotiate the quality and quantity of service while maintaining their service standards and hourly fee" (caps mine)

 

So, do I take it that when the negotiations involve "lowly' parties, it is haggling but when it involves big-suited guys and girls with millions of dollars at stake, then they are true negotiations. I am not convinced in the least. Negotiating is negotiating is negotiating no matter the social status of those involved. Second, how do you know that value can't be created for both parties in an an escort-client negotiation. Remember, I stressed OPTIMUM in my earlier post.

 

Additional Comments:

@roamingguy: You wrote: ......"she didn't conduct a scientific study on negotiating nor claim to conduct a scientific study on negotiating"

 

Exactly, and this is why I wrote that I wouldn't put faith in her conclusions.

[cyclo 30131]

@Cyclo : you wrote: ....."there doesn't SEEM to be much room for an sp to negotiate the quality and quantity of service while maintaining their service standards and hourly fee" (caps mine)

 

So, do I take it that when the negotiations involve "lowly' parties, it is haggling but when it involves big-suited guys and girls with millions of dollars at stake, then they are true negotiations. I am not convinced in the least. Negotiating is negotiating is negotiating no matter the social status of those involved.

 

Hi Lipualipua. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

 

I didn't say or imply anything about social or economic status in my post. Please don't read that into what I said. I'm very aware that service providers and clients represent a range of social and economic backgrounds.

 

I used the word "seem" because in general I'm reluctant to make definitive statements about most topics until I've learned more. My comments were based upon my experience and expertise as a negotiator and trying to transfer that to this industry. I don't pretend to understand all the nuances of this industry.

 

To reassure you, I'm not saying it's the amount of money involved that qualifies a discussion as a negotiation. Quite the opposite. I'm saying that regardless of the amount of money at stake, all negotiations have similar qualities. Many important negotiations in life don't even involve money.

 

Have a nice weekend.

[Annessa 22743]

:) hehe

 

[lipualipua 4704]

@Annessa : sure the song is going on and on and I invite more people to join in for after all the more the merrier or in this case, the more we will all become acquainted with other's views; which can never be a bad thing. Regards.

[Guest Ot**w***og****n]

Just shoot me and put me out of my misery Annessa!! LOL Perfect. Just perfect.

 

:) hehe

 

[craig101 3213]

I have gone thru all of the responses. I have calculated each persons input, and put them to a spreadsheet. I only counted each persons response once to avoid double entries. Here is what I have found.

 

Total number of responses 54

Providers responses 25

Hobbyists responses 29

 

Providers saying no to this 23

Providers saying yes to this 2

 

Hobbyists saying no to this 24

Hobbyists saying yes to this 5

 

Total saying No to this 47

Total saying yes to this 7

 

So, if my math is correct (and I will be the first to admit if I am wrong).

 

Total % of Providers saying no 92%

Total % of Providers saying yes 8%

 

Total % of Hobbyists saying no 83%

Total % of Hobbyists saying yes 13%

 

Total of all respondents saying no 87%

Total of all respondents saying yes 13%

 

So, keep debating this one. This is an issue that unless you are the one providing the service, you will never truly understand. We can try to help you to understand, but if you choose to stop listening, and only do the talking, and trying to convince others why your answer is correct and the majority clearly state it is not correct, you will continue chasing your own tail.

 

By the way, to the one who is sending out the following email to several providers, cute:

 

Hey sexy, love your pics. What does $20 get me?

 

Those numbers seem to be getting better and better as we go on. It started off like 20 to 0. The more we talk about it and the more we discuss the more those numbers are going to swing.

People who hate negotiating are going to be louder and more vocal.

People who think its ok to negotiate are more likely to be secretive and quiet

about it.

I almost didn't post myself.

[EvaAdore 7767]

My two cents...

 

- I don't think haggling an SP is respectful or acceptable -

 

I do understand that some SP's are more than happy to negotiate their rates/services, and that is completely fine. Each person is going to act according to their own values and comfort. If an SP has clearly stated that she is open to suggestions, then by all means take her up on the offer! However, after looking at many a website, I have noticed that an overwhelming number of them have CLEARLY stated that their rates are NEVER up for negotiation whatsoever, and the numbers based on meaghanmcleod's tallies speak for themselves (thanks for putting that together, by the way!)

 

I understand that many people (specifically hobbyists) have mentioned that negotiation is a regular part of doing business, independent contractors especially. While I agree that it is a part of business, we are not talking about some intangible object or a 'regular' service based business. We are talking about a woman's body, mind and well-being here.

 

Many of you hobbyists have no idea what being on the SP-side of this business is like; what kind of personal, mental and emotional tolls it can take. Yes a 'normal' job can cause distress and each have their own specific consequences, but sharing your body and your Self with your clients is a whole different ballgame. I don't mean to speak for *everyone* or speak in terms of absolutes here, either.

 

Regardless of whether a woman has a solid self-esteem and sense of worth there are still many issues we have to deal with that a hobbyist does not. And while there are certain issues that the client deals with on their side of things (I'm definitely not saying you guys don't have to deal with risks or emotional issues of your own), I think you need to take into account that whatever issues you deal with as the client, ours are magnified a hundred times over.

 

Our rates reflect (not necessarily all of these, but many)

- Bodily maintenance like buying expensive lingerie, clothing, makeup as well as things like getting waxed, laser hair treatments, nails done, etc so we can look and feel our best for you... all of which are expensive and/or painful; Also frequent testing and risks of UTI's, yeast infections, etc from unhygienic clients or use of toys, all of which cost money and can be very painful and uncomfortable;

- Costs to rent out/provide a space for you to come and enjoy us;

- Touring costs;

- Transportation costs;

- Taking time off so we can heal, get our minds right, not be an object/living blow up doll for a while; **I'm not saying we all feel like this, or feel it all the time - but personally, there have definitely been moments**

 

- Dealing with a hobbyists ignorant/mindless comments from time to time (I'd like to point out that the vast majority of you gentleman are great, respectful and a pleasure to work with, but the occasional asshat does appear and can make us feel dirty, ashamed or even scared for our lives)

 

- The risk of being hurt physically, or even extreme cases where the woman is killed or sold. Honestly, how likely is it that an SP is going to have some kind of psychotic episode and physically hurt you? How many times have you heard of that happening? Yet how many thousands of women have died, been sold, been stalked, harassed, hurt or been in any kind of pain because of a client?

 

- We take a huge risk in our personal lives for being stigmatised, called out, exposed, losing friendships/relationships and even family members; especially us providers that show our faces in our pictures.

 

And I would also like to point out, for the people who are going to jump in and say "Well if she struggles with issues, she shouldn't be doing this job!!!" -- Okay, yes. There are people who aren't mentally/emotionally equipped for this job. And when the cons start outweighing the pros, that's when she should either take a break or retire. However - there are many women who are most definitely able to do this who have moments where they want to quit because we deal with a LOT. ALL the time. Regardless of whether a woman is able to handle this job or not, please recognize that we have a LOT more to deal with than the average person. Not to sound high-and-mighty or anything, but we do!

 

So no... I don't think you should negotiate a woman's rates. Ever. If you think a rate is too high, find someone who offers their services for a lower rate. End of story. We take too many risks to be lowballed or haggled with by an opportunistic person who doesn't take into account all the things we go through and worry about so that we can be here doing what we do.

 

Sorry if I sounded harsh, accusatory, or like a total whiner! I am not trying to come off as defensive or angry here; I just personally find it extremely insulting when people make comments about my rates as if I don't provide a great experience that isn't "worth" what I ask for it, or make me feel like they are doing me a favor by paying my asked price. Please!