The Provider vs. Client "Contract"

[cat 262460]

Fair enough, Cleo.

 

But to put this in perspective, you are one SP and I am recounting my experiences with many SP's.

 

There are actually a great many that DO NOT require payment up front and the hobbyists should find those and deal strictly with those SP's as it is so much more enjoyable in mindset, to me, to keep money out of the picture until the end (unless they are well respected SP's, such as yourself and others out here).

 

The fact that you insist it makes it more enjoyable for you without knowing if it made the experience more enjoyable for the providers is interesting. As Cleo mentioned, it brings power dynamics into play. Remember, we get paid to pretend to like our clients, no matter how distasteful they may be, especially if the rent is due or our kids need braces. I can assure you, until a providers trusts a client, she will be focused on whether or not she's going to get paid. It would make me question if the providers you choose are desperate for work and therefore vulnerable to your demands. The key is that you wouldn't know if that was how she was feeling if she was a professional. As a client, that's not a question I would want to wonder about given the nature of the service at hand. It would make me wonder why she would allow this, why would she take this risk? There is a reason, I guarantee it and it isn't because she trusts you given she has never met you...

 

cat

[LeeRichards 177238]

Fair enough, Cleo.

 

But to put this in perspective, you are one SP and I am recounting my experiences with many SP's.

 

There are actually a great many that DO NOT require payment up front and the hobbyists should find those and deal strictly with those SP's as it is so much more enjoyable in mindset, to me, to keep money out of the picture until the end (unless they are well respected SP's, such as yourself and others out here).

 

 

I have had the pleasure of spending plenty of verrrry memorable time with our wonderful ladies. I have yet to meet one that didn't expect payment up front ? Ever ! If the time came that I had to actually worry about that or ask them if it is OK to pay them when my boots are back on at the door ..... I shall quit.

[MightyPen 67414]

In my experience, the only time I've had trouble with SP's, as far as services and/or time committed, has been when I've paid up front.

Do you think maybe those two things are related, just not the way you think? If thanks to your behaviour the session begins with the SP actually having to come right out and remind you about paying the fee before you'll pay her at the start, then some of that "YMMV" you refer to elsewhere may have kicked in... and you may find the session goes a little more tortoise, and a lot less hare. (Plus, it sounds like you'll have decided that since she asked you to pay up front she must not be "relaxed, fun and for real," and you've maybe gone all pouty and ill-disposed. Little wonder things seem to go poorly on those occasions.)

 

Look, the women here take enough personal risks every day in this profession. As clients, one of our first priorities should be to never contribute further to those risks if we can avoid it. One of those professional risks is guys who dick around about the fee -- negotiating, pleading, or looking for a way not to pay at all. The fact is, when you don't produce the agreed-upon fee up front, it's not clear whether you're planning to pay at all. You've imposed risk on your provider where none was needed. I'm frankly stunned you can find anyone who agrees to this arrangement.

 

Treat your provider with respect and remove that particular risk from the equation. In my experience, paying smoothly and up front establishes your own trustworthiness, and helps gets everything off on the right foot. I'd personally be ashamed if I ever considered doing otherwise.

[Guest realnicehat]

There are actually a great many that DO NOT require payment up front and the hobbyists should find those and deal strictly with those SP's as it is so much more enjoyable in mindset, to me, to keep money out of the picture until the end (unless they are well respected SP's, such as yourself and others out here).

 

How you conduct your business with Sps is exactly that, your business.

 

But saying that hobbyists should deal strictly with providers who do not require payment up front is a pretty dangerous game. You are taking it upon yourself to either try to directly and negatively effect the business of ladies who do require payment up front or force them to change their policies. And all of this is based on the fact that to you it is a more enjoyable mindset?

 

Realistically, most guys on this board will see it as the bullshit move that it is. Do what you need to do but don't lobby for the other members to join you.

 

I have always paid up front, and with the exception of a couple of poorly chosen BP quickies I have always received exactly what was promised. If you do your research and choose well it is pretty rare that you will be disappointed.

[withpassion 914]

Wow! Everyone is making it sound like some big argument ensues and the SP only succumes because she needs to feed her hungry children.

 

The truth of the matter is that is just doesn't come up. I make the queries, ask the necessary questions, get the necessary agreement and I arrive. We carry out the task at hand and at the end I provide the agreed upon tribute.

 

Simple, smooth, no issues.

 

Please don't turn this into something that the United Nations and UNICEF have to get involved with.

 

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm referring to well-establish SP's, whether it be indepenent or via an agency. It is not uncommon.

 

Obviously, if you hand it over when you arrive, no SP will argue the point.

 

Spin it whichever way you like, but it's not at all sinister, evil or demented.

 

Yes, I check and if an SP indicates the money is required up front, I move along. Actually, when the insistance of an envelop is included, I roll my eyes too.

 

Anyway, there are some out here that require it up front and as I've continually indicated, that's all well and good.

 

I don't agree with it and I recommend that others stand up and do the same. If you don't agree with me, that is your right and privilege, but please do not imply that I treat anyone with less than respect. You may, in fact, be stunned, but that is your issue. You know a few SP's on here who all carry the same whip and tone. You simply know not of what you speak.

 

My voice carries weight as I have been present during those times that money is not requested nor given at the get go, with no starving children to be seen.

 

As with any opinion, a contrary view is often seen as a dangerous game, but only those willing to push through actually initiate change.

 

Have a good night one and all.

[cat 262460]

I would hope no children would be present, starving or otherwise! I will say that any provider worth her salt would ensure you got your moneys worth if she was too uncomfortable to ask for it when you didn't present it and breathed a huge sigh of relief when you finally paid. You have never been in that position so you really have no clue how a provider actually feels the first time she meets you and you don't provide the envelop...

 

cat

[VictoriaJolie 64127]

I have followed the tread from my experience it fall into following instruction..leaving the donation at the beginning g of the session is what is expected in the world of hobbiests,ponder so courtesan escort...

Personally I would agree with Cleo toward the reference of wade cash waving at you...

Like a carrot to a donkey..it happen to me and I asked the person to

Save

It doesn't make a difference if you pay after to get a session that be satisfy...i think it may does with non pro

If the lady has a reputation and been establish there are no reason to believe she wont deliver what she advertise

 

I have been in situation where the enveloppe was provided upfront(in usa)

And at the end I realize he paid for my Pse not Gfe...as in USA they are no discussion prior because of the law I made him aware that they were too much in it

On the other side I had a client booking me for 1 h

Put down the enveloppe and stay for 1.5

The donation was shorted by time and rates

 

I had guys try to give me Canadian tire money

Gift card..

So i am more relax to get the donation upfront

If I feel my session wasn't up to par because of me...I have in the past suggest discount or make up session

But you holding the donation until they end is nerve racking for us...Suggesting others follow your trace is giving the guys with bad intention easier opportunity

Vj

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Hey, interesting perspective on payment, withpassion. I'm off to see a movie this afternoon. Maybe I'll inquire about paying "after" i've watched it. You know, just in case it didn't provide all the stimulation i saw on the trailer.

 

If that works I'll be having a discussion with my car insurance broker. If I pay "after" the year is up and I had no claims maybe I can insist on some sort of discount.

 

Why didn't I think of this before. Rise up people and insist on payment afterwards!

[Brad 49548]

The truth of the matter is that is just doesn't come up. I make the queries, ask the necessary questions, get the necessary agreement and I arrive. We carry out the task at hand and at the end I provide the agreed upon tribute.

 

Simple, smooth, no issues.

 

Please don't turn this into something that the United Nations and UNICEF have to get involved with.

 

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm referring to well-establish SP's, whether it be indepenent or via an agency. It is not uncommon.

 

I've been trying to step back and see your point of view, but I just can't get my head around it. You say "simple, smooth, no issues" but I question what happens if you feel you didn't get what you expected. It's hard not to picture you calculating in your head what % of services you received and only giving that much of the donation. Or if you don't receive everything arranged ahead of time, do you not pay at all?

 

If you don't pay the full donation, then even if you didn't get every agreed upon service I'd still say you were in the wrong. Not happy with an encounter, then don't repeat with that provider. But if you spend the time, then leave the donation. It's as simple as that.

 

If on the other hand at the end you're always giving the full donation amount (as you imply happens above) then I don't understand why you wouldn't leave it at the beginning as most people seem to prefer. Even if you personally have had experiences with ladies that don't mind waiting until the end, can you truly not see how most--even if they don't express it to you during the encounter--would be spending the time worrying about it and be more at ease having the donation out of the way? How it doesn't at least appear like the client is holding the threat of not paying over her head? Even if it's not a power dynamic to your mind, can you not see how it appears that way and would be used as such by others?

 

Bear in mind too that the ladies are always taking more risk than the gentleman, especially with first time visitors. Yes, there are dangers for the gentleman and obviously an encounter may be a disappointment. But compared to how much a lady has to protect herself from it's hard to compare. So as Mightypen said, anything that clients can do to help put a lady at ease, we should do.

 

Doing your research, being respectful, and booking with reputable ladies will do a lot more to ensure a positive encounter than withholding a donation until the end ever will.

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

Leaving the payment to the end of the Encounter is just wrong IMO! First timers hear me out on this! The Ladies are taking a risk with someone they have never met before and it is a must that you follow their directions you are not going to be staying very long.

[JoyfulC 132299]

For many years, I never asked for payment until afterwards, although most volunteered upfront. Lately, though, I had a couple situations in which we both forgot, requiring an inconvenience on the part of the gentleman to make a trip back to pay me. So I have been trying to remember to get business out of the way upfront (before my 56-year-old brain is effed up in a post-multi-orgasmic haze).

 

It's never happened that anyone has refused to pay me beforehand when I've remembered to ask, but if someone did and explained that he was doing so to keep me on my toes, he would find himself back in his car in a blink.

 

As if!

[Guest webothscore]

Generally speaking, without any analysis whatsoever, I have found that ending off with a hug and/or kiss is much better than any transaction, and to ensure that it ends on a nice memory, a healthy tip is also given right at the beginning. To me, the sessions flow naturally and neither side is thinking of any possible stress.

[clearlycanadian7583 1199]

You don't pay for service, you pay for time. I think this is the simple way to look at it. Any letter combo posted by a provider (bbbj, dfk, cob, and so on) mean nothing, the provider and only the provider makes the descion on what services are provided based on the client upon meeting and talking with them in person. Texting, email and PM is a very impersonal way to communicate. A great example a provider a has the power to refuse digits if I have cuts all over my hands for her own and my safety.

Posted via Mobile Device

[roamingguy 300291]

Well that's the first I heard of paying after an encounter and still scratching my head over that mindset

Starting off an intimate encounter with that much mistrust can't be good. And frankly any lady would be well within her rights to show such a character the door

Not only do I pay up front as gentlemen do I now utilize in many cases email money transfers paying for the encounter in full even before I see the lady

Ladies take most of the risk in this lifestyle which must be a source of stress for them

Why unnecessarily add to their risk and stress by making them during an encounter wonder

if they will even get paid

A rambling

RG

[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

I have paid after with indepdents and also with several of the local agencies. I have never had the impression that the SP felt slighted, demeaned, under my thumb or otherwise.

 

You have your approach and that's fine, but to start insulting, demeaning me and name calling is a little over the top.

 

It just gets back to what I was saying, guys are being fooled into thinking paying up front is necesary. It really is not, you just have find those with the right attitude.

 

It's like anything else in this hobby: you choose who you see as the hobbyist and the SP does the same. The rules that are acceptible are up to the individual--on both sides--and demeaning one for their viewpoint is not constructive.

 

If this approach works for you and the providers you see, and is mutually agreed-upon, then that is what works for you. I think what is problematic here is that you are advocating that everyone should follow this approach, and that if they do not, then they are being fooled, or ripped off, or that they won't receive the services agreed-upon if they do not pay at the end. If you don't want to see providers who ask for the money upfront, that is your choice, and you will have to choose providers who are okay with this. But please don't advocate that everyone should go against the rules set by some providers -- there are many, many reasons why we choose to ask for the money up front, including ensuring that we ARE getting paid.

[SexxxyRebecca 57974]

I trust somebody once to pay after.. Still waiting after my money few months later! Never again. Period.

[Royalfun 55448]

" The donation is for my time only..."

 

This sentence says it all. It is always the "hobbyist" that request an encounter and ask the SP to be available for him. And it's a duty for the hobbyist to inquire before he ask what he can or can't expect from the SP.

 

And what happens during the encounter does not rely "only" on the shoulders of the SP. Chemistry, feelings, perceptions, expectations, and so on, between two strangers cannot rely on only one side.

 

So, it is obvious to me that when I request a date with a SP, I will pay before hand every penny that was agreed on. Some SPs will wait few minutes to allow the hobbyist to be sure that he still wants the encounter to happen; but even if this is the practice of the SP, the duty of the hobbyist is to pay the full donation. After all, the SP that has accepted to meet the hobbyist at his request, has already given a lot of time to prepare herself, and has blocked a few hours and may have refused to see other hobbyists.

[fortunateone 156618]

Just going in and not paying the sp before the session starts isn't the same as the sp voluntarily telling clients to not pay her until after the session. To me, this is forcing her to ask for it, and when she does, he makes it quite clear she will be punished for doing that, by leaving. So she's in a really tight spot, the guy who is there versus the guy she can no longer book who does follow her payment policy, but she missed his call due to this character.

 

 

So, again, just because you do not present the payment in advance and forces the sp to accept it after the session is NOT the same thing as her knowing how to comfortably ask for prepayment.

 

Saying that "lots' of sps take payment after the session is meaningless, to me, without a list of names of sps, to give them a chance to come in and say 'that's not true' or "i did that one time, because I was too scared to force the issue. it worked out OK, but now I know to not be too shy to ask". Maybe you could just list all the websites you've found where the sp does NOT say 'please present the donation at the beginning of the session", or all the many, because there must be tons of them, websites or ads that say, please pay me after the session, I prefer it that way.

 

Did you ever see the HBO series Cathouse? Did you ever once see any of those sps do anything other than chat with a guy before he decided what he wanted, they got the rate settled, and she makes sure he pays? And if he wants more or extra time, doesn't she say, oh, let me take care of that before we proceed? Each and everytime, in that place, prepayment. Hundreds of sps working there, thousands of clients, and no one is post paying. And that is one single location.

 

withpassion, you have NO idea what is running thru the mind of the sp who thinks she isn't going to get paid. It is a really aggressive thing to do, in the minds of some sps. It can also be slightly humiliating to have to ask for it, or to be handed some cash, after the fact. It is a HUGE reminder that this was a paid encounter, when really that part is or should be the last thing you should be ending any session with.

 

And yes, you ARE telling all the guys that they should be doing exactly the same thing, in other words, sending a message to force sps to comply to your demands on this issue. I don't know why you don't see that for what it is, unless this aggressive behaviour is blocking your view?

 

Clients and sps both say it is a bad idea, for the sp, that it is actually detrimental to the quality of the experience, but somehow you like that stick or the carrot of post payment. Others disagree, and you seem somehow offended by the fact that no one here agrees that post payment is actually 'normal' lol

 

Normal to who?

[FunValerie 8573]

Removed by the mod

[Guest realnicehat]

Hmmm.....a published list of ladies that withpassion says do not require payment up front. I can't see any way that that could go wrong ;)

 

If you really want more information or to get a better feel for him, withpassion uses the same handle elsewhere.

[FunValerie 8573]

I won't be conducting my investigation since mod has not allowed it. That being said, take note that not a single SP has posted that it is her policy to accept payment after the encounter from first time clients. The total lack of SPs claiming to accept payment from first time clients AFTER the encounter speaks more LOUDLY than anything that I can possibly post. If such SPs existed, they would have posted by now.

 

Review fraud should be exposed for the fraud that it is. Certainly, I do not want to be getting a whole bunch of calls, texts, and emails from pretend clients claiming that there is a whole bunch of other nameless SPs who all accept payment after the date and therefore I should also accept payment after the date. That is how review fraud hurts real people.

[canuckhooker 19202]

I won't be conducting my investigation since mod has not allowed it. That being said, take note that not a single SP has posted that it is her policy to accept payment after the encounter from first time clients. The total lack of SPs claiming to accept payment from first time clients AFTER the encounter speaks more LOUDLY than anything that I can possibly post. If such SPs existed, they would have posted by now.

 

Review fraud should be exposed for the fraud that it is. Certainly, I do not want to be getting a whole bunch of calls, texts, and emails from pretend clients claiming that there is a whole bunch of other nameless SPs who all accept payment after the date and therefore I should also accept payment after the date. That is how review fraud hurts real people.

 

Sorry, but just because somebody doesn't want to get drawn into this argument and say they take payment after, does not mean it doesn't exist. In fact I have personal knowledge that it does exist. Not everyone, not in every case, but it does happen.

 

If some client doesn't want to pay you upfront, then you have the choice to tell them to move on. The same as they have the choice not to see you. If an SP for any reason chooses to accept payment after, then that is their choice, and I am sure they have weighed the pros and cons. To suggest otherwise is rather presumptuous. And because they chose not to post on this thread is not proof that they don't exist.

 

Seriously, given the tone of this discussion, I don't think any of them would post on this thread, with you rounding up a bunch of torch carrying villagers to chase the monster into the windmill.

 

Now I wish the thread would go back to the far more interesting and original intent of discussing what kind of contract a client and an SP have.

[Guest realnicehat]

take note that not a single SP has posted that it is her policy to accept payment after the encounter from first time clients. The total lack of SPs claiming to accept payment from first time clients AFTER the encounter speaks more LOUDLY than anything that I can possibly post. If such SPs existed, they would have posted by now.

 

Interesting theory but I'm not sure your science is sound.

 

If I were to walk in to a crowded restaurant and request that any person who has hired a sex worker please stand up what have I proven when no one rises? That clients don't exist?

 

I honestly don't know the policies of every provider out there. Many of the ladies I have met have stated in their website that payment happens upon entry. I have always assumed this the norm and payed up front with everyone I see. Nothing I have read here has given me any desire to change that procedure.

 

As far as any "contract" implied, I've never given it much thought. I don't go in to an appointment with a checklist and I rarely leave disappointed.

 

What I really think would be interesting is some kind of correlation between the men who feel (or expect to be) ripped off and where/how they have chosen their provider. Having been around a while now and after reading a shit ton of posts, I feel like the gentlemen who have the most issues are also the ones who take the most risks.

 

By this I mean they seem more willing to take a chance on the new girl or a random BP ad rather than safely book with an established lady. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, I realize that there are guys who get off on the "hunt" as much as they do the act, and that finding the next gem is a big deal to them. But from reading reviews elsewhere it seems like they often have far more issues that the guys who play it safe, and because of this they appear almost anal (hee hee, I said anal) in their prerequisites for a meeting.

 

I know there is no way to accurately determine this, it is just my interpretation .

[Andee 220524]

At the end of the day, a gentleman should respect a lady's policy for payment and if she requests it upfront, that's what he should do. If he's worried he's going to get cheated out of the service, then maybe he needs to research the reputation of the lady beforehand or look at his own behaviour if he feels this is happening to him on a frequent basis.

 

I can't add much to what was already said by Cleo, Cat and some of the other ladies.

[fortunateone 156618]

I like the term 'review fraud". It speaks to a number of concerns many sps have about reviews and review sites.

 

I think Fun Valerie is particularly aware of the damage review fraud and misleading posts can do, and I appreciate the fact that she is now spending time here to post and comment on these issues.

 

 

i also think she was being facetious, knowing as I did when I made my post, that withpassion would have a really difficult time rising to the challenge of showing us ads and sites that specifically say 'pay me later, I don't know you, and I know that post payers often rip off sps, but what the heck, I'm feeling lucky." in their FAQ section.