Bill C-36 (winnipeg's opinion)

[fresh 8276]

If they want to find coerced and abused service providers they shouldn't be raiding hotels. anyone who has taken a drive in the west end can spot the pimps/drug dealers lurking not far from some obviously 'person at risk' type street workers.

Seems like they ignore the real problems that are rift there in front of their face and are obsessed with a problem that isn't really a' problem at all. no wonder our police resources are so stretched

[Cooperuke 110]

Question: can someone explain what legal merit can be enforced by outting an individual? Speculation about a transaction that may have occurred in private? Thanks.

[cinelli 22184]

The intent of outing someone was to expose them as hypocrites.

 

Bedford implied that she knew of politicians who dealt with escorts. If those same politicians support C36 there is a conflict of interest and hypocrisy as well.

[ThisOneWorks 4707]

Well, from reading and tracking this bill, it does appear that even experienced P's or seasoned or well reviewed.... Whatever word you want to use.... Are certainly considering stepping away from this world.

I spent what will most likely by my last money spent on a local experienced sp last week and even she does not think she will renew her ad as she feels that this will hurt her business.

For me? It's simply no longer worth the risk!

With this new law and the instant public outrage those that partake of a service that has been around for thousands of years will be guilty until proven innocent! Basically if you get caught say goodbye to whatever life, career, family everything you have.

For me? It's simply no longer worth the risk!

 

To those ladies I had the pleasure of spending time with thank you! For those that I wish I could have spent time with...... And that list is long too. My loss!

[cinelli 22184]

For me and most guys, this is a hobby. If I have to do without for a while it is not the end of the world.

 

For a lot of women this is their livelihood. Losing this income is going to really hurt them. I really feel bad about this, I know a couple of ladies personally who really count on this for extra income. They are not buying fur coats or Benzes, they are feeding their kids.

 

How does C36 "help" them? Frankly it pisses me off that Conservative politicians can play games and exploit vulnerable women just for a few votes.

[young60 1118]

Zoe

I would like to know your opionion on this matter, as you are very intelligent and I am sure have been following it closely. What are your thoughts, observations, concerns etc.

I highly respect and value your thoughts on all of this from a SP perspective.

Thanks

[Zoe Zee 13876]

I really don't know yet. I have listened to the reading of the proposed bill and I think what it will really come down to is how each municipality/province is going to enforce the bill...

 

The part that worries me is "anybody caught advertising FOR the sp is liable to criminal charges."

 

So, I wonder how EC will change and all that sort of stuff.

 

I will not risk a criminal record.

 

I am currently looking for other work. If I find it. I may stop advertising and just take my regulars. I truly do like this work. I've gone through privacy breaches, slander etc and have pulled through not taking it personally.

 

I think this is really going to be a wait and see situation. If they just go after people in forced conditions - good. If they go after providers who are choosing to do this on their own, then I'm out.

 

I also wonder how each of our potential new mayors will react to this, whether they will address it or if they even have any say on it.

 

Right now, it is "what if, and then what?" and I find no value in speculation. (fear-mongering)

 

EDIT: as for outing clients etc. I cannot see how that would ever come into play with me. I have had my privacy breached before and know how it feels. I would NEVER do that to anybody. SP or client. If the police held charges vs outing people - then I feel that is exploitative and essentially a threat. I would out myself and the misguided attempts of the police before I ever gave out a clients personal information, tell the media SPs are being threatened and be done with it all. I believe in client and SP right to privacy.

[fortunateone 156618]

i will say don't worry about EC, it is an advertising site, not an agency or a 3rd party poster. You submit the ad to EC, therefore you are the one posting the ad, not EC.

[cinelli 22184]

That sounds a lot like the harm reduction model. The safe injection site in Vancouver is similar and really does work.

 

The really ugly face of street prostitution is the only side most people know. Only a tiny minority of pooners read these boards, let alone the general public. I often get the same come-ons as you, I go to the University of Winnipeg and park in that area. There are a lot of SW's that are obviously on something. I was getting in my car after class and was propositioned by a girl, when I declined she kicked the side of my car. Two doors wrecked! Car break ins are common too.

 

That is a huge money pit for the city, there are always cops, ambulances and fire running around. It is also home for about a third of city gangbangers.

[fortunateone 156618]

I'm confused by that - do you not pay EC a fee to put up the advertisement? And then how are they not a second party advertising for you and profiting from it?

 

 

 

Well that's the problem with C36, as mentioned a few times.

 

The fact that it may be illegal for EC to accept payment in exchange for an sp to post an ad does not make it illegal for the sp to post OR pay for the ad.

 

The sp is not responsible for the risks the 2nd part is taking by taking her money to post her ads, and she is also not legally liable for those risks in any way. she is also not conspiring in any way with EC by paying them to publish any ads that she is legally allowed to post.

 

is there a logical way to explain this? no. because it is not logical.

[Cloud 1210]

I wonder if this will be applied to our non-contact private dances at our strip clubs. It's a sexual service. You might fight it by saying that prostitution laws don't apply to strip clubs where no prostitution takes place (overbroad and arbitrary seeing as dancers and clubs are licenced). I've read that strip clubs in Sweden suck, and Iceland banned them. I can see C-36 supporters being okay with shutting down strip clubs.

[fortunateone 156618]

I wonder if this will be applied to our non-contact private dances at our strip clubs. It's a sexual service. You might fight it by saying that prostitution laws don't apply to strip clubs where no prostitution takes place (overbroad and arbitrary seeing as dancers and clubs are licenced). I've read that strip clubs in Sweden suck, and Iceland banned them. I can see C-36 supporters being okay with shutting down strip clubs.

 

 

i think if there is no contact, there's no contact. I noticed some referrals to lap dances, that is contact so it was mentioned that would possibly qualify as a sexual service. Whether it does or not remains to be seen. The adult entertainment industry has the benefit of money, business licenses, zoning and organization, if it comes to that, they could be among the first to challenge C36. Which is a good thing.

 

All complaints are out the window if the SC allows sexual services in the private rooms, tho, and this does indeed happen in various places in the country.

[batmeez69 525]

Do you think that this bill will affect escort agencies (ie mgf) the way it will affect indies?

[Guest K****4]

When dose this bill come into effect is it dec 1 ???

[fortunateone 156618]

Do you think that this bill will affect escort agencies (ie mgf) the way it will affect indies?

 

 

It will affect everyone, but my guess is that the impact will be felt more by agencies and massage parlours. They are the targets of C36, considered to be the exploiter/pimps of sps. However, LE are the final decision makers as to who, if anyone, and how they plan to enforce any new legislation.

 

For example, Edmonton has a method that works for them, maybe they will simply apply a new C36 law to what they find more important. Vancouver LE has a no harm to sps, which probably includes not harassing their workplaces (mps and agencies), in fact they don't have anything to do with the nationwide Operation Nothern Spotlight farce, and Edmonton uses the ONS to focus solely on traveling sps who may be literally trafficked/forced.

 

Each LE is going to do something different, and my guess is that Winnipeg LE have always seemed to leave your massage parlour owners and workers alone, so that probably won't change.

[Regent 35404]

The bill will come into effect once the Senate and House of Commons agree on an identical bill and it receives royal assent.

 

I'm unclear as to how C-36 is going to affect my business, particularly the nuances of it.

 

I have no doubt that it will make it harder to screen, and that business will take a hit until people can see how the law is being enforced. It's also unclear to me what kind of activities will be covered under C-36. My services are all kink related, and while it's all sexual to me, it's hard to say where the line is going to be drawn. I don't ever have sex with clients, at least not any conventional definition of sex.

 

If any Winnipeggers are interested in working to combat criminalization, we have a working group here that's part of the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform. https://www.facebook.com/WinnipegWG

 

If you want more info on how to get involved directly, email us: [email protected]

 

Sex workers and allies are encouraged to participate.

[ezish12 587]

I have a question for you guys. I read the whole thread also on other boards regarding this bill. I see some people are really scared which make sense to me. I hate having a record on my file if I get caught. I love travelling and don't want to cause an issue. Also won't go well with work. When EB/TO OR Nevada (a MP in Winnipeg) got raided and guys were caught inside, did they get a record as well. Or they were just let go with a warning?

There is another group who thinks business will be usual. I think I am somewhere in between. So it comes down to minimize the risk as much as possible. Here is what I am thinking. Let me know if there are ways I can minimize it more.

 

1. See someone who I have seen before. A regular.

2. When I contact her send an email asking simply to meet for 1 hour. *That's all. Nothing more in the email. I think email is safe and secure. Don't like texting. Also email from my hobby account.

3. Meeting at a hotel room or condo.

 

Now the question here. She will have a ad or website somewhere. I am not replying to her ad or mentioning anything about the site or ad. Am I still at risk? Just because she has an ad somewhere. SP have friends and they communicate with them all the time. I can simply be one of them.

 

2nd question: carrying cash with u, that can't be a risk,,,right?. You are only handing it over in a private room with someone you trust. Will it help if I do an online transaction? Like eMail transfer or PayPal.

 

3rd question: Lets assume I am really unlucky and got caught as a part of a sting operation. Let's say the hotel owner called the LE or some other client when to see her made a stupid mistake and I am just happen to be the next guy. I have no explicit communication by email or txt, what type of trouble will I be in.

 

Let me know is there anything more I can do to minimize the risk ?

 

Winnipeg question: what about places like Main 1360 or oriental place on portage or any other non RMT massage place. R they safe too?

[Regent 35404]

It's really hard to say how this is going to be enforced in Winnipeg. The "Counter-Exploitation" unit (formerly Vice), is really small (nine members, two of whom are dedicated to sex trade stuff) http://winnipeg.ca/police/ceu/, so there may be little to no enforcement when it comes to indoor sex workers. Or there might be an uptick in enforcement at the beginning. We just don't know.

 

The Winnipeg Working Group sent letters to all of the mayoral candidates during the election, to ask how they intend to enforce C-36, but Bowman didn't bother responding, so I'm unclear about his stance on anything related to sex work.

 

With regards to being confronted by the police, I think it all depends on the attitude and assumptions of the officers on scene. Even if there's no real evidence to suggest that you intend to purchase sexual services, they may make assumptions based merely on your presence and your gender.

 

They may arrest you even if they have no intention of charging you. They may also threaten or try to intimate you with threats of being arrested or charged for other things if you don't co-operate. If you do have an encounter with the police, know your rights and don't say anything more than you're legally required to. http://winnipegcopwatch.org/ has some good local resources.

 

With regard to communication, I believe phone calls have the best legal protections around privacy, though I could be mistaken.

 

DO NOT send money via Paypal. Paypal is aggressively anti-sex work, and will seize and hold funds if they suspect that they are for sexual products or services, OR if they suspect that one of the people involved provides sexual services, even if they aren't using Paypal for those transactions (eg someone who performs in porn uses Paypal to sell vintage clothes on eBay, account frozen.)

 

The Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform just updated their Q&A on C-36. The section that discusses ramifications for clients starts on page 3 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3mqMOhRg5FeMVRlTk93Q2ZBS2c&usp=drive_web&tid=0B3mqMOhRg5FeNlY4ZkxFb2pLaWM#list

 

It's 19 pages and I recommend everyone read it.

 

I know that's more questions than answers, but I hope it helps somewhat.

[ezish12 587]

The Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform just updated their Q&A on C-36. The section that discusses ramifications for clients starts on page 3 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3mqMOhRg5FeMVRlTk93Q2ZBS2c&usp=drive_web&tid=0B3mqMOhRg5FeNlY4ZkxFb2pLaWM#list

 

It's 19 pages and I recommend everyone read it.

 

Thanks a lot for posting this. This was very helpful. I recommend everyone to read this, at least the summary page.

This wasn't fun to read. I can't believe those stupid people made the law so vague. It made me more mad after reading it. "Any public place"? Really. They didn't define it specifically. How stupid is that? Now we need to see if we get charged and it will be up to the judge's to decide if my internet communication were public. That's crazy. Why we have such stupid people in charge to write law. Democracy is failing, stop voting for these nut jobs. Sigh!!

Posted via Mobile Device

[Ice4fun 78407]

 

The Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform just updated their Q&A on C-36. The section that discusses ramifications for clients starts on page 3 https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B3mqMOhRg5FeMVRlTk93Q2ZBS2c&usp=drive_web&tid=0B3mqMOhRg5FeNlY4ZkxFb2pLaWM#list

 

It's 19 pages and I recommend everyone read it.

 

I know that's more questions than answers, but I hope it helps somewhat.

 

This document is very informative and I would recommend it to anyone involved in the industry as a worker or hobbiest.

[usernametaken 2936]

I think new girls coming into the business should pair up with a well known sp...so we can gradually ease them in!

[stbordie 387]

Not sure if these girls are new but I don't even ask anything specific and they're like responding to a whole slew of menu prices and services without even being asked. Seems like being set up or something or is it just me be paranoid. What do you guys think.

[fortunateone 156618]

Not sure if these girls are new but I don't even ask anything specific and they're like responding to a whole slew of menu prices and services without even being asked. Seems like being set up or something or is it just me be paranoid. What do you guys think.

 

 

i think you are being paranoid. Firstly because the law is not in effect yet. And secondly because you are probably assuming that everyone who works, advertises or responds to advertisements even knows about C36

 

 

I would say that the vast majority will carry on as before in complete ignorance that there are any laws, just as they do currently.

[squirtingmilf 1982]

I think everyone just really needs to calm down seriously lol .. It's really not as bad as what the media etc. are making it out to be. As an activist for this industry sp's and pooner's alike, the abolishment agencies have their own agenda and it takes WAY too much manpower and tax dollars to go around busting indie sp's.

 

You come to a city like Vancouver where there are literally thousands of sp's and it'd take them forever to bust every single indie in this city, although Vancouver has already made it quite clear they have no desire to partake in enforcing the laws in the new bill.

 

As for an sp outing her clients, come on guys seriously? No sp in her right mind is going to damage her business reputation, for those of us that have been around for YEARS (decades in my case), the police better dig a grave for me before they ask me to out my clients. I come from a very different era of being an sp and outing clients was one of most taboo subjects my first indoor boss ever taught me. I'm stubborn that way, heck it took me years to even offer girlyfriend exp because that was so taboo when I was taught.

 

For the gentlemen who was commenting about posts on the baby cow, the sp in question used face pics in her ads while touring (which is a big no-no) and the Alberta hotel industry has a big beef with sp's for the past two years, this is WHY she got busted. I'm also sure there's probably a bit more to that story and technically she wasn't busted, she was asked to vacate the hotel, she wasn't taken down the station, fined or anything that I recall. That's not being busted, that's being removed from a hotel that didn't want her present there any longer. A client could've outed her, a disgruntled sp, a guest in a room next to hers, who knows, but there's more to it than what was said.

 

I have an online business, have had it for years, one of my best friends of over 20 years, is the GM of a major hotel chain in Alberta. She's totally cool with sp's working in the hotel, as long as they pay their bills and don't cause drama.

 

Every year they host conferences (few times a year), share information and tactics to prevent being ripped off. Two years ago a guy was sent from Montreal with a bunch of ladies to Alberta and instead of legitimately paying for the rooms the ladies and he were using, he decided to be a clown about it and use a credit card scrambler machine, raking up over $600K in bills in various hotels along the gateway blvd strip - my girlfriends hotel was one of them. The hotel owners have a right to be mad, they have a right just like we do to protect our business interests.

 

So this is what the put into policy and I did send someone over to the baby cow to let them know and the majority of people didn't take it seriously, that's their problem.

 

If you dress in a manner that the hotel staff deem to be inappropriate you get put on a watch list in the managers office.

 

If you are acting derogatory or demeaning to any of the staff and they have you on that watch list, guess what? They're calling the police.

 

They'll look you up on backpage and whatever other sites, see if they can spot you using face pics, boom you're outta there.

 

I'm not saying it's right, but at the same time if I was ripped off a few hundred K, I'd be a little choked too.

 

When I tour and am in hotels, I'm probably one of the most grubbed out looking customers in the hotel, whenever the staff see me. My hair is up in a bun, no makeup on and I'm wearing sweats and sneaker's, I'm always very polite to all of the staff and reveal bits and pieces of my other work, so they never suspect anything. I'm always super quiet, tip well to housekeeping and ensure there's nothing in my room that will give me away as being an sp. I don't run around half naked, giving attitude, partying it up in my hotel room and bring myself unwanted attention EVER.

 

I went to one of the hotel owner and managers conventions with my girlfriend earlier this year and another sp, all of that information about their new policies came right from the horses mouth. If that incident wouldn't have happened, things would probably be lax just like it used to be, but when you start ripping people off, they're going to take action and you can't blame them.

 

Alberta does have stings every year that they partake in, usually twice a year .. October is definitely one of the months they do it, every year like clockwork. They meet their quota and boom it's over with.

 

Additional Comments:

I just wanted to add a few more things, as an activist, I've had more than my fair share of dealing with abolishment agencies and I know first hand what their objectives are. Minorities are number one on their target lists for being "rescued" and anyone suspect of being a minor (insert sarcastic tone -because you know all younger ladies are pimped), people that they think have a high possibility of being "rescued". So older ladies and those that are well established, I highly doubt will have any problems with police.

 

The police will go do their door knocks on some Asian massage parlours and micro's to shut up the abolishment agencies, so they've got some people to rescue and it keeps everyone "happy".

 

For the record, I've worked in this industry for almost 3 decades, just a few years shy of that, I started when I was VERY young ( a minor in fact) and I've had ZERO dealings with police personally, about me, pertaining to my work. And any time they've shown up at my door, they've point blank said, we know you're working and we don't care. My bad for having a crazy ex boyfriend and working with an sp that had serious personal issues.

 

They know I'm a lifer and not going to give them squat for information, so they don't bother.

 

Don't panic guys, just mind your P's and Q's, stick with long term established ladies and do your research, you'll be fine.

[ezish12 587]

http://www.lyla.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=649493

 

After reading this post, I have an idea. I should start a part time job at a pizza place. Then ask her to order pizza and then I go there with a pizza. She gets a pizza and we have fun. No one can prove shit :)