C-36 - A Conversation With a Cop

[bcguy42 38594]

I had the opportunity last night to have an in-depth discussion about C-36 with an Ottawa policeman. All this was off the record, he was speaking only for himself and his situation may change but none the less it was interesting.

 

Based on what he's been told, he does not see any major changes on the horizon. They will continue the occasional street level John Sweep. The guys will get charged. The SPs most likely won't.

 

As for SPs working from their home, condo, apartments or agencies, they have no interest in pursuing them. The probable results are not worth the investment in time and resources. Besides, he said, those people are paying their taxes just like any other person so barring any complaints, why would they bother them? He said this was the same for agencies, independents and "rub & tugs".

 

He explained that they, the police, are generally in a reactive mode. There is only so much money, manpower, and resource available so they will react to community issues (complaints). The closest thing to proactive effort he mentioned was a Sergeant who was reaching out to women working from ....... to make sure the SPs were aware of the resources available to them in case they had problems. Apparently this Sergeant got into difficulty when he got a little too friendly with the SPs but that's a different story.

 

He's not aware of any new money being allocated to address this "issue".

 

Bottom line: Don't go looking for sex on street corners. Be discrete. Life will go on.

[Guest Cr**gCa***ng]

This makes a lot of sense in that if no new funding is going into the police budget no additional enforcement will take place and they will continue to react to complaints and focus on overt street level activities.

[peacectryguy 12523]

I think this is what some of us have been saying we think will happen since this whole thing started. It doesn't surprise me hearing this from an actual cop. They will always go after the "low hanging fruit" as it were because spending time and resources on busts without significant convictions is wasteful and they know it. I remember when the gun registry law came in. At the time, I was doing work for a few different RCMP (some active, some recently retired), and they were, to a man, disgusted by the law creating extra work for them and keeping them from doing the "real" police work of protecting citizens from "actual" criminals. An excerpt from the Wikipedia description of how the law has worked in Sweden is interesting in that after several years, there was never any jail time handed out. I don't know if these numbers are from that specific year or overall but it's still pretty small, imo.

 

In 2008 the number of police reports was 1,500 with 86 convictions in 2006. A Supreme court ruling has prevented the optional jail term being applied, and some parliamentarians have called for a minimum one year jail term.[182][183] To date nobody has been imprisoned, according to Swedish Public Radio. [184] A number of sources suggest that the law is not being enforced very strictly.[185] Figures released in July 2010, suggest a large increase in the number of men reported for paying sex, which was attributed to increased police activity. The number of convictions was not reported.[186][187]

[Kate von Katz 49953]

A lot of us have been saying pretty much this since C-36 was looming months ago. Even when certain things were illegal, LE didn't go around busting everyone they could find. C-36 won't change that.

 

The biggest difficulties will be in us ladies advertising effectively and having our online communities like Cerb. Independent ladies and agencies likely will get zero troubles from LE.

 

We've beaten this discussion to death over many threads, and frankly I'm not the slightest bit surprised that an officer told you this. This law sounds scary, but it's up to LE to enforce it, and they've never been too concerned about busting up the sex trade. It's pretty low on the list when you've got rapists, murderers, thieves and all manner of other criminals out there.

[bcguy42 38594]

A lot of us have been saying pretty much this since C-36 was looming months ago. Even when certain things were illegal, LE didn't go around busting everyone they could find. C-36 won't change that.

 

The biggest difficulties will be in us ladies advertising effectively and having our online communities like Cerb. Independent ladies and agencies likely will get zero troubles from LE.

 

We've beaten this discussion to death over many threads, and frankly I'm not the slightest bit surprised that an officer told you this. This law sounds scary, but it's up to LE to enforce it, and they've never been too concerned about busting up the sex trade. It's pretty low on the list when you've got rapists, murderers, thieves and all manner of other criminals out there.

 

Agreed. This has been discussed nearly to death here amongst ourselves. But for me, what we were lacking was input directly from LE.

 

As I listened to him, I was thinking his priorities might get changed if the Chief or the Mayor went loopy and decided to "clean up Dodge" and arrest everybody. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[roamingguy 300291]

I've certainly argued this from the outset. This is MacKay's baby, not the police departments'. Even if the Chief or Mayor "cleaned up Dodge" the question needs to be asked then, first, where are the dollars to clean Dodge up with???...and second, why didn't they clean up Dodge under previous legislation. Remember, ....... were illegal, using escort agencies (living off the avails for example) illegal, yet how many CERBite's here did ......., or use escort agencies without worry. And how easy arrests could have been.

But the police aren't after who is operating privately and discretely, they are after visible targets, street prostitution

Discretion is the biggest concern. Read between the lines in a lady's advertising/website. No need to spell out everything. Ladies aim to please, not disappoint, so even if not spelled out in their ads just means what happens privately stays private

A rambling

 

RG

[conquistador 18487]

Sure, I agree with most that the cops won't do much unless it's on the street level type crime. I think it might be a bit early to tell exactly what the police will do and where the resources will go, this is only one city - Ottawa... Might be different in another city.

 

Saw one video on another forum with the cops busting at a Sp's incall in Sweden, and basically getting the men as they come out, a little scary.

 

Anyways, guys have to be on there guard and take precaution in what they do and don't always think with the little guy lol.

 

C36 does have me scared a bit, and I'm not afraid to admit that... So for me, I'll sit on the sidelines for a few months and see how things transpire, hopefully for the good.

 

We all have to handle our own way and what makes us most comfortable.

[igab 5629]

This is about politics. The Cons want to look like they're doing something to their voter base with an election within the next 11 months. The police didn't have the resources to do anything more than monitor the street action before and there are no new resources to police this bill.

I would assume that if someone does something stupid like the situation at the Lord Elgin a while ago there will be charges, otherwise it's hobby on Dudes!

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

When it comes to c-36 I'm hoping enforcement will not change but I'm adjusting my policies just the same.

 

A few months back I was involved in a meeting with very senior police regarding c-36. Their 2nd in command was forming a working group/task force and her intentions were on reducing prostitution in our area.

I mention this just to say, be extra vigilant. Don't let confirmation bias blind you to the "possibility" that police forces could easily rework their budgets to allow for an initial crack down after this bill becomes law... especially if they receive political pressure from above. It may not happen but if it does I don't want to be the one making that headline, nor would I want any of you to.

[canuckhooker 19202]

It is public perception that will drive this, and budgets. Many Canadians think of prostitution and all they see or can imagine are drug addicted street-walkers in shady neighbourhoods. The major conflict arises when up-and-comers move into these neighbourhoods and try to gentrify them. Then the complaints start.

 

I see LE continuing their sweeps of street prostitution and maybe even stepping it up. I see them going for some low-hanging fruit with some agencies or even spas that are less than discrete or who annoy their neighbours. "I don't want my real estate office next to a brothel"

 

I can't see them going after those flying below the radar, particularly indy's etc. The return for the amount of effort is not going to make it worth while for them. There would even be a low probability for a conviction. Trying to gather evidence that would hold up in court will be extremely difficult.

 

So if you stay away from street-walkers. Exercise caution and only go with people you know are not LE or plants. (so look out for newbies on BP etc) I would wager you have nothing to worry about. I don't even think they will waste time with boards like this other than to gather a bit of intelligence on what is going on in the world.

[fortunateone 156618]

Sure, I agree with most that the cops won't do much unless it's on the street level type crime. I think it might be a bit early to tell exactly what the police will do and where the resources will go, this is only one city - Ottawa... Might be different in another city.

 

Saw one video on another forum with the cops busting at a Sp's incall in Sweden, and basically getting the men as they come out, a little scary.

 

Anyways, guys have to be on there guard and take precaution in what they do and don't always think with the little guy lol.

 

C36 does have me scared a bit, and I'm not afraid to admit that... So for me, I'll sit on the sidelines for a few months and see how things transpire, hopefully for the good.

 

We all have to handle our own way and what makes us most comfortable.

 

 

Even that video is really extreme, but Sweden has the law for 15 years, and they have set up their decision to lurk outside of ....... like that to enforce it. Since that is the 'norm' there now, it isn't unusual there. but it is far from being the norm here, they don't do it now, they could do it now, and could have done it for the past 30 years but they do not.

 

even in the video example, first they received a phone call from a client who found the ad, contacted the sp, and believes she is the victim of trafficking. he reported the ad to LE, who followed up. In this case, first there is a desire to help someone who may be a victim, not harass an adult consenting sex worker.

 

 

In almost every article that i've seen so far with LE being asked about enforcement or concerns, almost every single time they redirect the questions to the street trade. That has been their focus. I would bet that the LE in Steve's story is also talking about street work. When it comes to the term 'cleaning up', no one is talking about sex workers and clients they cannot see, they are only talking about traffic and people on the streets.

[conquistador 18487]

Even that video is really extreme, but Sweden has the law for 15 years, and they have set up their decision to lurk outside of ....... like that to enforce it. Since that is the 'norm' there now, it isn't unusual there. but it is far from being the norm here, they don't do it now, they could do it now, and could have done it for the past 30 years but they do not.

 

even in the video example, first they received a phone call from a client who found the ad, contacted the sp, and believes she is the victim of trafficking. he reported the ad to LE, who followed up. In this case, first there is a desire to help someone who may be a victim, not harass an adult consenting sex worker.

 

True, haven't really done that here, but it def a wake up call that they do that in Sweden.

 

It just takes one phone call from a nosey neighbour, unhappy client, etc to make that type of phone call and the cops doing a similar thing... And some poor guy going there to see her and gets arrested. They're going to be all over girls that are being trafficked, as they should be.

 

But I do agree about street level stuff and they'll continue to do that... But we can't say for sure they won't come up with new or borrowed ideas of policing. I hope more cities like Van city come out and say how they'll do things. I think Ottawa will be tolerant, but all speculation until after Dec 6th.

 

Guys just have to be smart about seeing an SP.

[Guest v****o]

Totally agree, conquistador.

 

The thing is, now that they have this new law to work with, none of us really knows what they'll do - and that's a concern.

[Ice4fun 78396]

Bottom line... there were legal issues involved in this industry before C-35 so risk should not be new to any of us... do what we have always do... adapt... be creative... make safe choices and move forward. Life goes on.

[bewlayb 7480]

My comments were not intended to suggest things had not changed... just to suggest that there is a way forward and that while the risk has changed the fact that there is a risk to this hobby is not new.

 

Well, I wasn't responding to you specifically, but nonetheless, I think you missed the point.

 

I understand risk is a part of hobbying. What I'm trying to point out is that C-36 introduces a discontinuity to the natural order that we've become accustomed to here. These last couple of years have been relatively uninhibited halcyon days for our hobby. That will soon change. There will be a settling in period as LE adopt and adapt to the new law. We can't necessarily predict (especially in a general way on a national board like cerb) how all forces will choose to enforce it. Until we have a better idea of the enforcement posture, hobbyist risk is higher than "usual". Adjust accordingly.

[Ice4fun 78396]

Well, I wasn't responding to you specifically, but nonetheless, I think you missed the point.

 

I understand risk is a part of hobbying. What I'm trying to point out is that C-36 introduces a discontinuity to the natural order that we've become accustomed to here. These last couple of years have been relatively uninhibited halcyon days for our hobby. That will soon change. There will be a settling in period as LE adopt and adapt to the new law. We can't necessarily predict (especially in a general way on a national board like cerb) how all forces will choose to enforce it. Until we have a better idea of the enforcement posture, hobbyist risk is higher than "usual". Adjust accordingly.

 

 

I am not sure I missed your point at all I agree that things have changed and that there will be a settling in period... i agree that the risk has changed in fact i think for clients it has significantly increased. But i also think, based on my time in the hobby, that things are always changing... i recall when the business was much more on the street and newspaper ads and landlines the risks were higher then too but we found ways and we will now.

 

I like you agree that we need head to be thinking ahead and consider all the risks.

 

Just my opinion

[fortunateone 156618]

My comments were not intended to suggest things had not changed... just to suggest that there is a way forward and that while the risk has changed the fact that there is a risk to this hobby is not new.

 

 

This is really the heart of it. many clients and sps are very comfortable with the fact that they can operate without LE interference. And yet every day, we all offer our ....... and clients happily come to visit us. Both of us can face very real criminal charges for being in that incall. An incall is super easy to prove. Far easier to prove than paying or offering to pay anyone for anything.

 

But people continue to beat this around, like there are no real risks now, and any risks of ... are completely new, unusual and terrifying. Well, no, it is just as much a risk to be in a bawdy house, to be charged with being in one, and just as likely to happen to someone.

 

But the fact is, no one is charged with that. LE does not sit outside of a private indy incall and monitor the comings and goings into the apartment building, trying to decide is that guy a client, or should we talk to this other guy and try to get him to admit something.

 

When it comes to 'reporting by nosy neighbours', that is one of the least likely things to happen as well. Again, if it isn't happening to us now, why suddenly overnight is it going to happen. After all, reporting someone running a bawdyhouse will be pointless. a bawdy house is not going to be illegal.

 

I find a lot of fear mongering is based on false ideas of what is going to happen, not reality at all. When we try to discuss the topic, it goes around in circles, with the emphasis seeming to be on indy incall sps as being higher risk than other options. currently indy private incall sps are the least risk option, to the point of no risk which has been proven over decades. To suggest that we are now high risk or even THE highest risk does us all a disservice, and is simply not true.

[Phaedrus 209521]

Thanks for that, bcguy.

 

I know that people often have a generally bad opinion of the police, and that occasionally it's deserved, but most of them are decent people doing a hard job. They *know* which laws actually matter and need to be enforced, and which don't; they know that two consenting adults having fun with an envelope on the table are absolutely no threat to the fabric of society. They have a lot of discretion over which laws they actually police and which they don't.

 

Don't underestimate the power of passive resistance to nullify stupid laws.

 

Of course, the police are still answerable to the public, and must therefore respond to public concern... and that's why we'll still see periodic sweeps and stings aimed at street workers and their clients - they're the most obvious facet of the industry. Everyone else: carry on!