Locker room type behaviour?

[Ice4fun 78396]

It kind of funny that someone could argue a breach of privacy based on such a flimsy argument of an agreement to join a private facebook group but want to ignore a written policy of the university (code of employee conduct) that they consented to when then applied to attend the university. Kinda self serving to only want to apply agreements that are in your favor. If they did not want to be held accountable under the code they should have not studied at the university. This dummies went a step further and implicated the university in their stupidity by naming the group as they did.

 

Just my Opinion

 

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[oldblueeyez 15475]

Now that I'm not drunk and not (as) angry, I'd like to say that the common sensical approch would be to suspend these guys for the rest of the year and allow them to return the following year if they successfully complete a womens' sensitivity course.

 

Some of these guys are apparently suicidal, and some of them likely have huge student debtloads accumulated. The feminists want to completely ruin these guys' lives and want nothing less than blood, but they may get more blood than they wished for should they push somebody to rampage.

 

This requires a balanced approach, and I won't post again on this topic unless to say, "I told you so."

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

Against my better judgement I am making one final post on this and then you can slam or misinterpret me to your hearts content. :)

 

When I started this thread I was trying to decide what punishment should fit this "crime". In my mind the only crime here was gross stupidity within what was considered a supposedly private group dynamic. From the start I said their comments were pretty nasty but I never thought they were actually planning a criminal act. Does the majority of clear thinking people really think they were planning a crime?

 

Stupidity is everywhere. It's unfortunately part of being human. In the last week I've seen/heard:

 

-A dumb blonde joke. He doesn't work with blondes so his job is probably safe.

-An older(90's) person say disparaging comments about a black neighbor. I could shun her but it probably wouldn't be for long. Maybe we could try and take her pension though?

-Someone posted hate filled comments about all Muslims after the Paris attack today. People just called him an asshole. Huh, didn't they know they could try and get him fired?

-An employee inadvertently posted a complaint on my business facebook page instead of her own page. I guess I could have fired her but I believe in 2'nd chances.

 

These actually happened and I chose to ignore(gasp) these indiscretions and in my employees case I asked her to be more careful next time without getting in to how she jeopardized my livelihood, etc.. I know, I'm risking world peace, etc., with this approach but that's my own method for handling stupid mistakes of others. It's worked well so far but maybe one of these days I'll try and exaggerate the potential consequences and see where that leads.

 

I get tired of the end of the world scenarios if we don't throw the book at every single expression of stupidity. It's like you can only empathize with the victim or the perp. What about trying both and then calmly make the punishment fit the crime. Enough with the hyperbole.

 

OK, running for cover now:)

[Miss Jessica Lee 43328]

If this had been one student, making a single stupid post, it might have passed as a "mistake".

 

It went way beyond that.

 

 

Things don't have to be criminal to be wrong in some people's mind.

[Ice4fun 78396]

The best thing that could have happened in this case was for the university to have acted more quickly when it became aware of the issue and that a full investigation and discipline hearing to have taken place before this turned into the shit show it is now. These gentlemen appear to have acted stupidly in a fashion that is not in keeping with the code of conduct of the university they chose to attend and most likely in a manner that is not in keeping with the appropriate conduct expected by the profession they chose to pursue.... whether they like it or not there will be, consequences to their behaviour... will the consequences be appropriate for the indiscretion... well no matter what it is it will be debated. Lesson to be learned... you are responsible, for your behavior.

 

Just my Opinion

 

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[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

These actually happened and I chose to ignore(gasp) these indiscretions and in my employees case I asked her to be more careful next time without getting in to how she jeopardized my livelihood, etc.. I know, I'm risking world peace, etc., with this approach but that's my own method for handling stupid mistakes of others. It's worked well so far but maybe one of these days I'll try and exaggerate the potential consequences and see where that leads.

I'm guessing that none of the people in your examples are medical professionals who, one day, will be responsible for the care of a patient who is under anesthesia.

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

There was no question from the beginning of this thread that these guys did something stupid and a rehabilitative discipline of some sort might deem appropriate. The issue was with the lynching mentality premised on an unfounded claim, at least until this stage, of criminality. There are many ways to get the best out of people.

[loopie 15358]

I have one question for all of you are saying that these guys should never be allowed to be dentists:

 

What profession should they be allowed in?

 

Since the one thing we can all agree on is that these guys haven't broken the law, they aren't criminals and therefore not going to prison. They will remain in society and they have to go somewhere, so where do they go? They will want jobs, you say they can't be dentists, what can they be? Is a possible-rapist cashier acceptable? How about a possible-rapist bus driver? Or a possible-rapist gardener? Do any of those options actually make you feel safer or that your moral outrage is more satisfied? Or have you thought that far ahead?

 

Women are everywhere. If one of these guys is determined to rape a woman, not becoming a dentist isn't going to stop him. As a free citizen he will have the opportunity to find women.

 

I'm sincerely asking this question. I find whenever the media is presenting its villain of the week like this, everybody is quick to say that whatever is being done isn't enough, but it just makes me wonder what they would think is enough.

[Ice4fun 78396]

I am not willing to determine there punishment until the process is complete... the devil is in the details and the recourse may not be the same for all involved... let the process take it's course.

 

Just my Opinion

 

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[FunAdventures 4501]

I have one question for all of you are saying that these guys should never be allowed to be dentists:

 

What profession should they be allowed in?

 

Since the one thing we can all agree on is that these guys haven't broken the law, they aren't criminals and therefore not going to prison. They will remain in society and they have to go somewhere, so where do they go? They will want jobs, you say they can't be dentists, what can they be? Is a possible-rapist cashier acceptable? How about a possible-rapist bus driver? Or a possible-rapist gardener? Do any of those options actually make you feel safer or that your moral outrage is more satisfied? Or have you thought that far ahead?

 

Women are everywhere. If one of these guys is determined to rape a woman, not becoming a dentist isn't going to stop him. As a free citizen he will have the opportunity to find women.

 

I'm sincerely asking this question. I find whenever the media is presenting its villain of the week like this, everybody is quick to say that whatever is being done isn't enough, but it just makes me wonder what they would think is enough.

I think the only concern with them staying in dentistry is that they will be able to be alone with anesthetized women (at least that is the concern for me). They will be in a position of power with access to the means to fulfill their fantasies.

[Guest *l**e]

actually,that is not the true concern...

Dentistry, like nursing and many other health professions have provincial "Colleges". These colleges are self regulating bodies. What that means is that the dentists themselves make the rules of conduct that fit in line with both the regulated health care professionals act and the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, as well as any pertinent laws or regulations that may apply within a specific jurisdiction. In order to get into the college and practice, you must meet all the criteria and be subject to a criminal records check as well as your school records check, etc. If these guy get expelled, or even just suspended for their actions, this will be on their records and the College may decide not to license them. If one of them were to commit a sexual assault on a client, or even workplace harassment of a coworker or employee in the future, the College would have to answer as to why they permitted a person with this history into the profession in the first place.

Certain professions (medical, dentist, therapist, even police) are held to a higher, or at least different standard than many other professions because they are dealing with people in incredible compromised states. It is not likely that a cashier would have opportunity to rape a client in line at Walmart.

 

Oldblueeyez actually made a good and sober (haha) point. It could happen that they take this year off, make whatever deal is necessary, satisfy a bunch of conditions, then go back next year to finish up. That may be what ends up happening. No one wants anyone's life ruined or anyone committing suicide, but also, no wants a bunch of ladies going to school in fear either. Personally, I hope everything works out ok in the end. Maybe I'm an optimist

[Kathryn Bardot 99339]

I have one question for all of you are saying that these guys should never be allowed to be dentists:

 

What profession should they be allowed in?

 

Since the one thing we can all agree on is that these guys haven't broken the law, they aren't criminals and therefore not going to prison. They will remain in society and they have to go somewhere, so where do they go?

Why is the onus not on them -- their actions are what caused this.

 

If I were to plagiarize in my studies, there would be consequences. As a student, I know that this is unacceptable behaviour, and what the consequences are, which can include expulsion from my program. So, if I plagiarize, what then? Is it my professor or my faculty's fault that I am now unable to complete my degree? Are they responsible that I am going to have difficulties applying to another school/field? No, it's my own fault for behaviour that I knew what inappropriate and which went against the rules for my school.

 

Where will they go? Honestly, my question is: what are they going to do? I haven't been following the story closely, but my guess is if they want to continue elsewhere, they are going to need to accept responsibility for their behaviour and work to prove that they have learned from this and can behave as mature, respectful adults.

[Guest ***y****9]

.

 

Where will they go? Honestly, my question is: what are they going to do? I haven't been following the story closely, but my guess is if they want to continue elsewhere, they are going to need to accept responsibility for their behaviour and work to prove that they have learned from this and can behave as mature, respectful adults.

 

Isn't that the purpose of restorative justice?

[loopie 15358]

Why is the onus not on them -- their actions are what caused this.

 

Where will they go? Honestly, my question is: what are they going to do? I haven't been following the story closely, but my guess is if they want to continue elsewhere, they are going to need to accept responsibility for their behaviour and work to prove that they have learned from this and can behave as mature, respectful adults.

 

Okay, but what would that involve?

 

How much grovelling would it take for you to believe that they'd "accepted responsibility"? Or is there some other act they could do that would convince you that they had learned their lesson?

 

I think for a lot of people, the answer is that nothing will ever convince them that these guys are trustworthy. And for those people, my question was that since these guys aren't going to jail, what do we(as a society) do with them?

[Guest Miss Jane TG]

Okay, but what would that involve?

 

How much grovelling would it take for you to believe that they'd "accepted responsibility"? Or is there some other act they could do that would convince you that they had learned their lesson?

 

I think for a lot of people, the answer is that nothing will ever convince them that these guys are trustworthy. And for those people, my question was that since these guys aren't going to jail, what do we(as a society) do with them?

 

Simple, destroy their whole life dream, their autonomy and convert them into psychopaths who would believe that every joke they made deserves to be converted into reality.

 

Turn them into the cap drivers' sector of the industry as we have gross shortage in cap drivers and overtly saturated by doctors, so the feminist groups feel happy as they felt with the Nordic model.

 

Problem solved. Guess what, a cap driver picking up a young girl after clubbing hours has more power than a team of MDs.

[henryporter 1836]

This thread is kinda complicated now and I'm a bit of a simpleton.

 

Is it valid to wonder how many other "groups" around the world are communicating privately about potentially harmful things that would affect innocent people if one or more of the group decided to act?

 

I am under the impression that this was exposed before anyone acted out any part of the discussion.

 

Punishments are what they are whether too weak or too strong but the fact remains that participation in something like this can be "joking" (very loosely used) or something that goes completely wrong and ends in the worst possible way.

 

If 4th year university students are that dumb we should worry for ourselves. Not them.

[CristyCurves 169032]

I think Loopie and Miss Jane and Henry Porter in their latter posts have a point, I feel I can speak to this topic because of my experience and I wasn't going to post this but here goes.

I can speak to this topic of rape because I was raped, It was many years ago when it happened. I was at a party and trusted the wrong guy. I thought he was just showing me where the bathroom was, instead he took me, rather forced me, into a private area where he then placed a pillow over my face and did his deed. I didn't know what was worse, the act or the thought of dying because I couldn't breathe. After that I had to deal with a mother who blamed me for it happening... anyway even for that bastard, I wouldn't wish a life long sentence.

So I do think these guys should face punishment but not be ruined for life.

Rape, thoughts of it and comments to it are such an emotional subject. It causes lifelong effects so I can understand the responses and desires of punishment. But we should agree that idiots, even ill intentioned idiots shouldn't be penalized for life for just uttering disgusting comments. Had they acted out any of these then I'd have a different opinion, perhaps. Quite honestly they have already been tried by the court of public opinion, and depending on their abilities to overcome and strength of self they may already be doomed for life.

[roamingguy 300292]

Isn't that the purpose of restorative justice?

 

Restorative Justice works when ALL stakeholders in the process are involved. It is less focussed on the State imposing it's sanctions and more on the victim(s) and offender(s) mediating and coming up with some form of restitution that acknowledges the wrongdoing done.

All the stakeholders must want to participate in this process

And the goal is restitution that acknowledges the wrongdoing done. The goal is not how the offenders can remain in dental school. In fact the very real outcome of restorative justice in this case hypothetically speaking would be the victims agreeing with the police and Crown that they don't pursue any charges and in exchange the thirteen students agree to leave dental school and not attempt any career in a dental/medical profession

Restorative justice doesn't mean restoring these thirteen men back to dental school as students and graduate them. It means restoring back to normal, as best as possible, considering the damage these thirteen men caused to their victims, without police/Crown laying charges and removing the possibility of these men serving time

Just off the top of my head, and I'm not a lawyer, but it appears they could be charged with utter threats to cause death/bodily harm

Or Criminal Conspiracy, or both. Mind you I'm no lawyer, I've only heard third hand about the FB postings. But the fear these thirteen students should have isn't graduating, it should be wondering if this is going to proceed criminally

 

RG

[FunAdventures 4501]

I think this article on the subject is worthy of a repost. Very well written in my opinion.

 

http://metronews.ca/voices/the-kohler-report/1256229/dalhousie-dentistry-scandal-tasteless-joke-or-harmful-threats/

 

 

I also came across these other headlines while searching for the first.

 

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/what-are-they-going-to-dokick-every-guy-out-of-fourth-year/Content?oid=4488208

 

And an open letter from the one who leaked the page, which was done after the voting took place on which classmate they wanted to HateF*

 

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/to-my-classmates-im-sorry/Content?oid=4488630

[Miss Jessica Lee 43328]

I think this article on the subject is worthy of a repost. Very well written in my opinion.

 

http://metronews.ca/voices/the-kohler-report/1256229/dalhousie-dentistry-scandal-tasteless-joke-or-harmful-threats/

 

 

I also came across these other headlines while searching for the first.

 

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/what-are-they-going-to-dokick-every-guy-out-of-fourth-year/Content?oid=4488208

 

And an open letter from the one who leaked the page, which was done after the voting took place on which classmate they wanted to HateF*

 

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/to-my-classmates-im-sorry/Content?oid=4488630

 

thanks for posting these, really good reading. Doesn't appear the restorative justice method is being welcomed by many of the victims.

 

And what a touching letter from the man who finally stepped up. Much respect to him.

[roamingguy 300292]

It appears (I'm not a Facebooker) that this type of FB group didn't even comply with FB Terms Of Service

https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms

Scroll down to Section 3 Safety

Possibly Para 6

Specifically Para 7 and 10

BTW if this is available on the internet to a non Facebooker so I'm sure that it is not just available but required part of the sign in when you join FB

 

RG

[Ice4fun 78396]

Well after a bit of public criticism the Dalhousie Dental School reluctantly turned copies of the facebook groups posts to the police who have now reviewed them and indicated that the posts did not constitute criminal behaviour so no charges will be laid.

 

For me personally this leave the issue where it should be an internal issue of student behaviour for the university to deal with and of course a professional licensing issue for the various dental licensing boards.

 

Unfortunately for the gentlemen involved their behaviour has become widely known in the public and now they will have to live with consequences which undoubtedly has included public humiliation and most likely career and education implication.

 

Just my opinion.

 

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[buddyl 100]

The police looked at this and felt there was no crime committed. If the technology is ever developed to read minds all men would be thrown in jail if the test that was applied in this case was applied in all cases. Men were created horny, otherwise the species would become extinct. Live and let live.

[roamingguy 300292]

The police looked at this and felt there was no crime committed. If the technology is ever developed to read minds all men would be thrown in jail if the test that was applied in this case was applied in all cases. Men were created horny, otherwise the species would become extinct. Live and let live.

 

As MightyPen pointed out, and has been mentioned more than a few times in this thread the focus is primarily on breaking the university code of conduct and falling below the professional standards of the profession they wish to embark on

That said, while no criminal charges filed, it is of interest that the actions of the thirteen dental students did in fact cause the police to make enquiries.

As for your assertion that all men would be thrown in jail...speak for yourself and your thoughts only. A lot of men respect women. We find enjoyment and pleasure from consensual sex. We don't have thoughts of drugging women and hate f**king (what I call rape) them.

As a sidebar, it's because, in part of "men" who have such thoughts , that in this lifestyle ladies screen potential clients. I'm sure one or two (or more) ladies have taken notice of your post

 

RG

[Guest *Ste***cque**]

In the rush to figuratively "lynch" these 13 people there was also a call to have police investigate. There was also tons of calls for expulsion of all 13 on lots of posts.

 

To give this some context this was a few comments among Thousands of innocuous comments within an online version of a locker-room where guys thought they could let off some steam without having to worry about censoring their every single thought. In this fundamentalist PC world I will sadly admit that may have been naïve. Still, having the letters DDS on their "private" facebook group shouldn't make a substantial difference to a "locker-room" since locker rooms also exist in a school too.

 

In the end this was all about a rush to judgement where facts would just get in the way. Some made a big issue out of the fact that words were "actually typed" within a private facebook group as if to suggest that is similar to deeds or somehow makes all the difference in the world. I wonder if Salmon Rushdie would sympathize with these 13 since he was also crucified for "typing" some stuff a group of sensitive people disagreed with in his book The Satanic Verses.

 

Didn't a lot of Muslims think what he wrote was hateful? I'm not really comforted by knowing all we wanted to do was expel them, take away their livelihood and destroy them professionally.

 

I wish I could figure out how to attach a cartoon drawn in 2007 from the New Yorker which said "Please enjoy this culturally, ethnically, religiously and politically correct cartoon responsibly. Thank you."

IT WAS BLANK! That's where we're headed if we can't tolerate occasional locker room behaviour.