becker 389 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 The scenario: Client texts or PMs the provider, giving a general overview, or, specifics on what he is looking for, and the provider agrees that she is fine with everything, and the client agrees on the price, so the client books. The client pays upfront and after the 30/60 min. session, it is obvious to the client that indeed the provider decided to not provide some items that were agreed to in the text or PM (i.e. DFK was tight lipped pecking, shared shower turned into "do you mind showering alone so I don't mess up my hair", and "yes I have lots of toys" became "I can't find my vibrator" and so on). Did the provider break the contract? Does the provider owe the client some kind of rebate? Or is the client SOL because the cash has been stashed giving the provider a sense of "mission accomplished" leaving the client with no recourse. I am curious how the members of Cerb, both providers and clients, feel not about the specific examples above, but about the concept of "you were paid in full upfront and failed to perform the agreed upon services". If the client arrives and the provider decides "I'm not showering with this person", should she not be honest and declare it upfront before payment, and allow the client to decide if he still wants to spend the same amount of money on a reduced service? Perhaps some providers reading this have do just that??? Should the client have the right to say "I paid for X upfront, and you gave me x minus y, so I would appreciate a $50 dollar rebate (perhaps that also has happened). Does YMMV prevail and always cover the provider?? If yes, should YMMV have been part of the "booking conversation" i.e. Dave I only do DFK if I am attracted to you. It seems in most other businesses, if the client pays in full upfront, and the business does not provide the agreed upon services, the client is not left with a position of "oh well, I'm SOL". Everyone on Cerb would object and take some kind of action (do it again, give me some money back, small claims court, better business bureau, etc.) if their painter agreed to 2 coats and bolted after 1 - kind of a MSOG in the contracting world 8). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen 67414 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 The first thing to do is communicate well during the appointment. Maybe she's forgotten some of your favourite details. No problem; bring up the topic of the missing bits with a smile and a laugh, and guide her and the session on the course you had discussed. If you haven't established friendly, positive back-and-forth communication with your provider, then that's your first problem right there. Then again maybe there's some reason why, now that the moment is upon you both, she doesn't really feel comfortable following through. Again, communication during the session is key. Raise the subject in a friendly way to make sure she hasn't forgotten, and if she's not comfortable with X, work together to find another way to have fun that works for both of you. But ultimately, if all of your discussions to resolve the problem fail, then you need to remember that the contract between the client and provider is solely for time spent together in which things will probably happen, but there's never a guarantee. She's a human being, not a vending machine; your money gives you no claim over her body. So all of those details you discussed are requests, but there's never an ironclad guarantee they'll be fulfilled. If you ultimately aren't satisfied with a session, and your conversation with the provider hasn't resolved that to your satisfaction, then just don't go back. Chasing after your money with "but you didn't do X! Give me Y dollars back!" is crass and fruitless. And, last of all: don't compare sex work to other industries. The comparison is always misleading when it comes to these types of up-close human interactions. Your SP is not your mechanic. 40 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peachka 4334 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 It is a business unlike other business'. In short, no there is no claim to a rebate etc. Ethically, yes but highly unlikely she would give back any $ as she likely lied in the first place to get you in the door. The other thing is if you have conversed with the SP via email or text, you really don't know if it is the SP you are conversing with. Some have 'Booking Agents' that handle these details. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MightyPen 67414 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 Ethically, yes but highly unlikely she would give back any $ as she likely lied in the first place to get you in the door. Whoa. There's too many other reasons why some request might go unfulfilled for this to be the first or most "likely" reason. It's not that this never happens; but let's not jump there as a first reflex. But otherwise I agree with your points. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cat 262460 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 Mighty Pen's words speak truth. There are times a provider hasn't prepared for the appointment by keeping track of requests. That would require keeping records and that is something quite discouraged by hobbyists. I don't provide a menu or promise a single service when I book my appointments for this reason. If a guest has a check list of activities that must take place during the playdate, I'm not the provider for him and I'm clear about this upfront. If a guest let's me run the session the way my intuition tells me he will leave smiling and completely satisfied. Walk thru my door with specific services demanded and you will be shown the door but I don't keep the envelop. I think it's dirty money at that point and brings no good to my life from a karmic level. A good provider trusts her instincts and if her spidey sense is tingling, the agreed upon services are at her discretion. She needs to be honest about why she won't provide the agreed upon services if she wants to make the appointment work. Won't kiss? Probably a hygiene issue at hand. No shower? She has probably booked appointments after you that weren't on the books when you set up your appointment and won't have time to redo her hair after you leave; or she feels it's a bad judgement call from a safety perspective. There are a 100 reasons the menu will change. Has the contract been broken? Yes. Is she required to give you a refund of some sort? No but if she's smart she will make it right. It's good business to be honest and keep clients happy. This business is only viable if you can build repeat business and violating the agreement doesn't accomplish that... cat 19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WriteOn 3250 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 if the client pays in full upfront, and the business does not provide the agreed upon services, the client is not left with a position of "oh well, I'm SOL". You kinda are SOL. One recourse is to find a site where you can go post your experience, you cannot do it here but there are sites where you can. If she is dishonest with everyone eventually it will catch up with her, you won't get your money back but she will be out of business soon enough. Research is very important and I know cerbites religiously love their site but it is important to gather information from as many sources as possible before booking an appointment. If you do good research your chances of being disappointed are dramatically reduced. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoyfulC 132299 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 There are some SPs who will promise anything to get you in the door and get your money in hand. But there are some things an SP might have a hard time delivering on after promising, sight unseen. DFK is one. I love to kiss, but DFK, to some people, seems to mean something I'd be more likely to describe as tonsil tasting or attempting to discern what I had for breakfast. Think of it yourself. You love DFK, but when you meet, you discover that your SP, while being clean and not having bad breath, simply doesn't have a taste or a style of kissing that works for you. People don't kiss to satisfy terms of a contract, but to explore, arouse and be intimate with another person. That's why I never feel comfortable being put on the spot to agree to such terms, sight unseen. I've always been skittish, and more quick to write someone off than to push for a sale (and I've only gotten worse with age, I know), but that's something to consider when communicating with an SP beforehand: some are working hard at selling, and others are working hard at identifying who will be a good match. I suspect you'll get your best service from the latter, if she chooses you. But too, I suspect that, like me, such SPs will be put off by someone who wants them to commit to too much, sight unseen. I recommend you only dive into "hammering out the details" of a contract if it's absolutely essential to you. And make it clear that you will not pay if it doesnt happen. But don't be surprised if many SPs wish you well and send you on your way. 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrgreen760 37785 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 In my view it's inherently not a level playing field and due diligence and communication has become even more critical. Peace MG 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roamingguy 300292 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 First and foremost, YMMV is a factor in all encounters. And what is agreed to in a email or a PM is what she offers in her encounters and may be willing to do. Sometimes YMMV is spelled out in a lady's website, but sometimes it is implied. But most experienced in this lifestyle understand that an encounter with a lady, underlying all menu options she provides, is a YMMV factor. Yes, those menu options are services she provides. But not all the time and not to everyone. Example. DFK might be offered. But if you show up having bad breath, consider yourself lucky to even get a peck on the cheek. And no, she didn't break any promises IMHO. Or she might allow digits, but if you show up looking like you changed oil on your car, don't expect digits, and again, IMHO, she didn't break any promises Be realistic in your expectations too. A lady may offer MSOG. Me for example, at 52, one SOG I'm happy. But if I request MSOG and only get one SOG should I get a discount, no. A lady may have a long list of menu items offered but that doesn't mean each and every item can physically be done in one encounter And finally there is one other thing. You are not paying for services. You are paying for a lady's time. What happens during that time together is between two consenting adults. So understanding that, and the YMMV factor, the best option is to be a gentleman (including paying in full, good hygiene, showing up on time) and you'll find YMMV will have a positive meaning for you. And what happens between you two consenting adults will be something positive and memorable A rambling from a gentleman for who YMMV has been a positive term and has had positive and memorable encounters RG 8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ngtime 560 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 Crucial but not always offered. Could be many reasons, I show up fresh breath and my mouth is always clean, but if this service is not offered I am disappointed. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IsaMassage 54318 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 I have to agree with Cat on this... i am also the kind of person that would not agree to an specific or promise things that I may not deliver. .. I also believe like cat that every encounter is different and I like to let things take its own course... I like to meet the person and also discover through out the session what my visitor likes and enjoys in the massage session. But I also do my best to try and remember previous communication with the person to make sure that if any special requests are made and I have agreed I don't leave them out. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Isabella Gia (Banned) 53881 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 Vitto mentioned a very important thing, if you receive a particular request and can't commit to it then be honest and say you can't guarantee it but are willing to offer it under the right circumstances, the problem comes when as Christine already stated a provider takes a booking knowing she will not follow up. I agree that yes, there is YMMV but there's also lack of professionalism and being people or our services being too personal does not equal/justify us (escorts/MA's) being deceitful. I also think the way Cat works (I do it very similar to her) reduces issues like this as is difficult to guarantee services that depend of many factors, especially when you haven't met the person inquiring. So the gentlemen that look for particular services have more chances to have a successful encounter if, as suggested already communicate with the lady but also do research on comments made by others who have seen her (recommendations) and pay attention on if the things he is looking for are constantly mentioned, that would give very few chances to not be satisfied at the end of the date. 6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hector17 9215 Report post Posted October 5, 2013 To the OP...Sorry if your experience wasn't rewarding, but imo your only prerogative is to not see her again if you didn't fully enjoy yourself. I do hope you did enjoy your rendez vous based on the service you did get though...go with the glass half full... As for the money issue, if it helps, I have rationalized it with myself that if I ever seem to place an actual $ value on the pleasure I enjoy with an SP, then perhaps this whole thing is not for me. I forget about the $ the minute I make the booking..it has no value then....it's just paper....so I can never have a resentment that way. That is not to say that I dont have a top $ limit I will go, cause I do, and even then I bargain with myself over some ads I consider. As well I dont break down my experience by each service...rather more as it relates to my pleasure in its' entirety. I get that you discussed, and were promised certain services, but I dont think there is much you could've expected refund wise or can do now, besides not see her again, and as another post mentioned, possibly review her on another board. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phaedrus 209521 Report post Posted October 7, 2013 To be honest, this kind of thing is the main reason why I don't tend to request particular things in advance. Yes, there are particular things I like, and I'll definitely go and see someone who I think it likely to provide those things... but I much prefer to let any given encounter play out however it happens to go at the time. And yes, that does mean that I'm not going to tick all of my favourite boxes every time I see someone... but that's OK. If someone's good enough at X, then as far as I'm concerned she can keep me happy without doing Y and Z at all, even though Y and Z are things I generally like. And yes, I'll go back and see her.... again, and again. Your SP is not your mechanic. Unfortunately. If my mechanic left my car in as good shape as SPs leave me, life would be much better... 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 12, 2013 That is always an unfortunate situation. Most SP's are upfront and you can believe that YMMV comes into play. Others use it a hook/excuse...as in yes, I do .... But, then they make up some excuse to not provide a service they said they did, but never intended to provide. The best approach is to verify once you arrive and NEVER pay up front. That is the only real incentive that you can provide. If the SP knows you are not paying upfront, she will 1) ensure she is honest, 2) provide what she says she will. We all know if we haven't washed in a week that an SP will be reluctant to do what she said she would. So, we have to be honest with ourselves too. I never pay up front and if there is ever an issue, I still pay what's expected and, as other's have suggested, I just don't return. But believe me guys, you'd be amazed at how not paying up front changes the dynamic most of the time. It's too bad that so many have been fooled into thinking that paying in advance is the "norm" as it is not nor is it to your advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fortunateone 156618 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 Guys haven't been fooled into thinking this is the 'norm', this actually is the norm. It changes the dynamic when the sp is afraid she is providing the service to someone (new or regular) who may not pay her. I am not sure how that 'dynamic' is going to be a good thing. An sp who isn't going to provide certain services, isn't going to provide whether you prepay or post pay, and what are you going to do if you don't get what you believe she promised? Not pay the fee you agreed to pay when you made the appointment? Are you going to have her shout and berate you when you decide you aren't going to pay her what she told you was the rate before you made the appointment? Are you prepared for her to follow you out of the building, take down your license plate, and post your name, # and car on the internet because you ripped her off? or are you simply going to pay her the fee in full. And if you are going to do that at the end, why not just do it at the beginning, and get an sp who is not tense and afraid that she is going to be, yet again, ripped off? I wonder how you think you can get away with that, when someone is charging for her time, and you spent the time with her in full lol To me, the only sps who are ripped off are the ones who accept post pay, and the only guys who are going to rip off sps, look specifically for sps who take payment after. One of the worst things any reviewer can do to any sp, especially if she is new, is mention in the review that she takes post payment. The only exception that i find acceptable to sps who do a post payment method are sps who work in a spa, massage parlour, with others, because the client comes in knowing she has backup, the place has security cameras, and so on. I still think it is a bad idea, and mp attendants still get ripped off due to this sort of policy, but at least there is more than one vulnerable sp in the place with a client who has decided to not pay. Additional Comments: The scenario: Client texts or PMs the provider, giving a general overview, or, specifics on what he is looking for, and the provider agrees that she is fine with everything, and the client agrees on the price, so the client books. The client pays upfront and after the 30/60 min. session, it is obvious to the client that indeed the provider decided to not provide some items that were agreed to in the text or PM (i.e. DFK was tight lipped pecking, shared shower turned into "do you mind showering alone so I don't mess up my hair", and "yes I have lots of toys" became "I can't find my vibrator" and so on). Did the provider break the contract? Does the provider owe the client some kind of rebate? Or is the client SOL because the cash has been stashed giving the provider a sense of "mission accomplished" leaving the client with no recourse. I am curious how the members of Cerb, both providers and clients, feel not about the specific examples above, but about the concept of "you were paid in full upfront and failed to perform the agreed upon services". If the client arrives and the provider decides "I'm not showering with this person", should she not be honest and declare it upfront before payment, and allow the client to decide if he still wants to spend the same amount of money on a reduced service? Perhaps some providers reading this have do just that??? Should the client have the right to say "I paid for X upfront, and you gave me x minus y, so I would appreciate a $50 dollar rebate (perhaps that also has happened). Does YMMV prevail and always cover the provider?? If yes, should YMMV have been part of the "booking conversation" i.e. Dave I only do DFK if I am attracted to you. It seems in most other businesses, if the client pays in full upfront, and the business does not provide the agreed upon services, the client is not left with a position of "oh well, I'm SOL". Everyone on Cerb would object and take some kind of action (do it again, give me some money back, small claims court, better business bureau, etc.) if their painter agreed to 2 coats and bolted after 1 - kind of a MSOG in the contracting world 8). Not every business is like this business tho, and for that matter, many estimates from a mechanic, for example, rarely matches what you end up paying even tho the work done is the same work agreed upon lol. It doesn't matter if they take and put away the payment. It doesn't always matter what they said (or texted or emailed) prior to the booking. You are meeting a new sp, and assuming she did the booking, it might not be true, or it might be she doesn't connect you with the questions she answered before. She might be confusing you with the guy who didn't want DFK. So what you do is face to face prior to handing over the money, is go thru that list of things that got you to the door. Most sps in your area have a money for time set up, not a money for specific services set up, so if you get your time, there is no opening to ask for a rebate. If you don't get your time, or there was an extra charge to go from GFE to PSE (which I take from accompanied showers, DFK and toys could be the case), then you could ask for that amount back. If she doesn't upcharge for toy show, then no, there isn't any amount you can ask back because you have not been charged a particular specific fee for that. you see where I am going with this? Communication gets you to the door, but once you are inside that door with a new provider that you don't know how credible her promises were, you just run thru them again face to face minutes before sessions starts. She can't avoid not providing something, if she promises it directly to you, she can't be confused about who she is seeing who was asking to do more, and who asked to do less, for example. 13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 I certainly beg to differ. In my experience, the SP's that are relaxed, fun and for real, do not ask for money up front. I've NEVER had an issue about services and/or time discussed and committed to and I've always had a great time. In my experience, the only time I've had trouble with SP's, as far as services and/or time committed, has been when I've paid up front. Of course SP's have a vested interested in having the money up front. I am just relating my own experience. That is the only expectation this thread can expect...personal experience. Now, if they want money right away, I leave. My experience has taught me that much. Guys, do what YOU want and what you are comfortable with, not what you are being TOLD to do by those with vested interest. Of course, this is like anything, it DOES NOT equate to every SP that has ever walked the earth. Just MY OWN experience (and those of a few others). Cheers! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FunValerie 8573 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 Has any other SP noticed that the longer the list of requests in advance the higher the odds that the client will NOT show up for the date? I have noticed that it makes no difference if I agree to all or some or none of the requests, the longer the list of advance demands, the lower the odds that the client will actually show up for the date. Personally, I no longer read long emails or texts of demands. If it looks like someone had his hand in his pants while typing, I delete. This one policy of deleting anything long or graphic has done wonders to cut down on the no show problem. An email or a text to an escort should not look like a submission to a porn magazine or porn website. What I found is that some clients are wonderful and it is a pleasure to spend time with them and some clients are total nightmares whom I would never see again for any amount of money. Most people are somewhere between the two but more are close to the positive end of the scale which is why I am still here. No email or text list is a substitute for meeting the real person in the flesh. It is impossible to access what will happen until such time as you meet the actual person. You cannot get an estimate on your car repair until the mechanic meets the actual car. Your experienced long term service provider Valerie 6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 You cannot get an estimate on your car repair until the mechanic meets the actual car. Exactly! You do not get the bill until the service is complete. However, with most things, there is a warranty. With this nature of business, there is only the individual to provide or not as the whim strikes, and as pointed out previously by Fortunateone, with no recourse. But, again, I'd like to emphasize that I am not painting every SP with the same brush. I am stating my viewpoint and my experiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleo Catra 178382 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 If a client refused to put the envelope down at the beginning of an encounter, I would ask him to leave. Someone holding money over my head for me to perform for them is not a way to make an encounter enjoyable. It would make me feel like he is playing power games. I ask my clients to put the money down before we take our clothes off. You get that out of the way, because do you want your girl worrying the whole time that you aren't going to pay her? It's something I hated at the spas too. THere it was standard to pay after, and guess what, there were a few men who enjoyed my service only to tell me after, 'OOPS, forgot my wallet! Don't worry, I'll come back'. Who wants to guess if they did? Stop comparing us to mechanics. Yeesh. If you are paying a woman to get naked for you, for her to perform intimate sexual acts for you, you give her the respect to pay her first. Do not power-trip and refuse to pay until she performs. I can't even believe someone would think this is acceptable. 24 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 It is most certainly not power tripping. Why is it that as soon as one has a differing viewpoint it's power tripping, lack of respect, intent to rip off. There is the other side, that the SP is scamming and offering services she has no intention of fulfilling. It does work both ways. I have paid after with indepdents and also with several of the local agencies. I have never had the impression that the SP felt slighted, demeaned, under my thumb or otherwise. You have your approach and that's fine, but to start insulting, demeaning me and name calling is a little over the top. It just gets back to what I was saying, guys are being fooled into thinking paying up front is necesary. It really is not, you just have find those with the right attitude. It's like anything else in this hobby: you choose who you see as the hobbyist and the SP does the same. The rules that are acceptible are up to the individual--on both sides--and demeaning one for their viewpoint is not constructive. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cat 262460 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 Exactly! You do not get the bill until the service is complete. However, with most things, there is a warranty. With this nature of business, there is only the individual to provide or not as the whim strikes, and as pointed out previously by Fortunateone, with no recourse. But, again, I'd like to emphasize that I am not painting every SP with the same brush. I am stating my viewpoint and my experiences. But when you go to pick up your car without paying, they don't give you the keys and you don't get your car back! This is a ridiculous statement to make. I would love to see what would happen if hobbyists started walking in and refusing to pay for service first, I really would. I am a provider that is fairly relaxed about the timing of fee collection and I have been screwed over many times because of it back in the day. Now, I have provisions in place that if a client screws me (without paying), it will bite him far worse than it will hurt me. I can also say that the first time clients that have stiffed me intended to do so before they ever walked thru the door because I have never in my career promised services I couldn't or wouldn't deliver. State upfront that you intend to pay on the back end and see how many appointments you get... cat 6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 Yes, Cat, yes! Provide what you say (well, not you specifically) and there is no issue!!! That's all I'm saying. You, and others, want payment up front, that's fine. I won't do it. And I'm suggesting that the other hobbyists out there do the same. It doesn't change your policy, nor should it. And I am NOT suggesting you change what you do and how you do it. It is a free country and we all get to choose how we go about our business. So, there is no argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleo Catra 178382 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 It is most certainly not power tripping. Why is it that as soon as one has a differing viewpoint it's power tripping, lack of respect, intent to rip off. There is the other side, that the SP is scamming and offering services she has no intention of fulfilling. It does work both ways. I have paid after with indepdents and also with several of the local agencies. I have never had the impression that the SP felt slighted, demeaned, under my thumb or otherwise. You have your approach and that's fine, but to start insulting, demeaning me and name calling is a little over the top. It just gets back to what I was saying, guys are being fooled into thinking paying up front is necesary. It really is not, you just have find those with the right attitude. It's like anything else in this hobby: you choose who you see as the hobbyist and the SP does the same. The rules that are acceptible are up to the individual--on both sides--and demeaning one for their viewpoint is not constructive. There was no name calling, insulting, or demeaning. I stated how I would feel if someone refused to pay at the beginning. To me it would feel like a power-trip, so I would ask the man to leave; that does not mean I am calling you a power-tripper. You're not here in my bedroom. If you were, and were refusing to pay upfront, my previous statements would be personally directed at you. But rather, they are included in this thread, so any man reading the suggestion to refuse to pay up front, can read both that suggestion from a hobbiest, and also read how an SP would react if that suggestion was followed. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
withpassion 914 Report post Posted October 13, 2013 Fair enough, Cleo. But to put this in perspective, you are one SP and I am recounting my experiences with many SP's. There are actually a great many that DO NOT require payment up front and the hobbyists should find those and deal strictly with those SP's as it is so much more enjoyable in mindset, to me, to keep money out of the picture until the end (unless they are well respected SP's, such as yourself and others out here). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites