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Beautiful ladies here on Cerb? Since my initial start date back in 2007, I don't believe I've ever seen so many gorgeous SP's and Ma's. I'm not just talking about Ottawa area, but from the East coast through the West. It isn't just about the photo's (But I do love the photo's) it is about the interaction with many as well, that I find so great. But it often leads me astray ;) as to what lady I like to spend time with, if I could, I would try and see a lot of you sweet ladies in a heart beat. Your genuine personality goes along way in this industry, I just think you ladies here on Cerb, are ALL so BEAUTIFUL. I would like to say thank-you to you, for the friendship,intimacy and here's to future intimacy with you beautiful ladies. Happy Valentine's Day to each and everyone of you ladies! Warm hugs and kisses from ME :)

Help break the myths.

The comfort factor is HUGE, for everyone. This is why I will, professionally, only offer it in two circumstances: One, with two clients that I've known individually for some time, and can show that they know each other well. I will not 'introduce' two clients in a DP session, and I will never meet two new clients in a MMF session. THe other, is with my male friend that I offer MMF sessions with. This can be quite successful, because it's NOT another client. It's someone that I know well, and who is so comfortable with sex and being naked, that it can encourage the client to feel comfortable as well. We're not nervous, so it helps eliminate nervousness for everyone. And, it eliminates the awkward (or even, impossible), situation of trying to ask a friend to join in for a DP :) Comfort is the biggest factor in these situations, by far! But when it's there...my my my it can be fun :D

I agree! Let me anticipate the real thing! I also hate the perception that I must be into or tolerate drug use during a session.

the oftenness that people seem to think I want a pic of their penis. yes I get it you own one like 95% of my customers --yawn-- i think I've seen one or two

Hey Gents and Ladies ! Just want to begin this by saying that this is not directed at anyone or meant to be anyone's point of view. These are just a few etiquette pointers to make things smoother .. Here are a few tips that may make a first encounter easier or make another visit go a bit more smoothly. When contacting a lady you shouldn't ask them to lower their prices. When a lady sets a price it is what she feels she is worth. Don't try to bargain that with her. It can make it so she doesn't want to meet you or she may take offense to the question. I know I can't speak for all but I know it bothers me a bit. Donation (a rate set by an individual lady).. I don't know about any gents, but there may be a time when you thought, "How do I go about paying her? When .. Before or after? " .. Well the answer to that is have the donation in a white envelope. Give it to the lady within a few moments of greeting and introduction. Some SP's even prefer you to put the envelope in the bathroom or on something that's in plain sight. That way the lady doesn't have to feel rude by having to interrupt the conversation to ask for her money. Get things out of the way smoothly so the time together can move on without that interruption. Also after you get to know someone and they become a regular companion the donation may be left till the end because of a mutual trust or agreement made. The time spent between a Gent and a Lady, much enjoyed by both, has to end. A set time is usually discussed in advanced. When the time does come be courteous of the lady's time and save both from a tense moment. Also a lady shouldn't ask Gents to be coming over and shouldn't be contacting the gent for dates. When a gent wants to see you he will contact you for a date. Personally I enjoy getting to know each other and keeping in touch in between encounters. But I do not ask for anyone to make a booking with me. During the visit the lady should make you feel comfortable, relaxed, cared about and sometimes make you feel you're living out a wild fantasy. She meets your every need while providing a non rushed (no one likes to be rushed lol) and genuine experience. She may even be providing a clean and safe environment where the encounters take place. Conversation is key from booking a session, to the moment you meet and to make the date comfortable for both individuals. Try to avoid touching personal subjects. Remember discretion is usually a must on both parts. Be a bit awkward if the conversation gets going and you guys end up knowing the same people or even may happen to know each others spouses (ouch right ? lol). Most importantly respect. We are all real people. We all have unique bodies, views and personalities. Give respect and it shall be received. I'm sure with everyone you may encounter. And may the ladies do the same. Appreciate each Gent for their unique qualities and personalities. I respect everyone I meet and respect has been given back. Hopefully this thread will help someone out ! Ashley xo

http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=120532

A Valentines Day Viewpoint With Valentines Day upon us it causes me think about many things. Valentines Day is traditionally a day in which love is expressed, flowers and chocolates are given to a loved one, sweet nothings are whispered, one may choose to go out to a nice restaurant, all lovely things. I really never enjoyed Valentines Day because I found it so artificial. All of the things mentioned above I really did do on a very regular basis, not because I was 'expected' to do so but because I liked to do so. Now when Valentines Day comes around for me it is one of the saddest days of the year.

i visit saint john, moncton and fredericton regularly... i notice plenty of girls there when im visiting... maybe take a better or bigger look around doll!!

Dead? are you sure? In my experience Saint John is a great place to hobby in view of the visiting and local ladies. As well, I believe the ladies find Saint John as a great place to work.

11 pages, so this may already be there... But, I find people in such a rush these days that they try to barrel their way on to an elevator the moment the doors open rather then leaving a little room, taking a breath and allowing passengers (if any) to exit first. It's a small thing, maybe not a WTF, but annoying

The ingredients to make crack. It is an awesome desert we nicknamed crack because it is soooo addictive. Scor chocolate bars, condensed sweetened milk and ritz crackers. Omg...just crush the chocolate bar and crackers, mix in milk, place on baking tray and put in 375 oven for about 20mins. Break up like brittle and enjoy!

I saw Roxann's ad tonight. And since this was her first time in Winnipeg, I could not find a review. Her pics looked very sexy. All I can say is guys, please make sure you see her before she leaves and hopefully with good experience from us, she will come back again. Her pictures are 100% accurate, the tattoos and piercings are to the tee. This girl is beautiful and her french accent is sexy. If you don't see her while she's here, your definitely gonna miss out. I emailed and texted Roxann Sunday night as I was feeling very curious. She responded within a very good time and quite friendly I must say. We set up a time to meet, I booked a half hour to try out a session ( I regret not booking the full hour). When I arrived at her location, she greeted me at door wearing very sexy underwear. I got very excited right away seeing how much more sexier she was in person. The tattoos and piercing were hot on her. She helped me undress as I observed her sexy body. I immediately started to explore her hips and ass as soon as I got the chance. I got on the bed and she immediately gave me full attention and explore my body. Roxann is not a clock watcher and took her time pleasuring me, she really really enjoys what she does. She gave me an amazing bbbj with excellent bls, It felt so good I asked her to 69 with me as I wanted to return the favor. I went to town on her sweet shaven kitty (probably one of the nicest pussy I have ever seen). I could not get enough of how good it tasted. I almost blew my load in her mouth, which rarely happens to me, so I composed myself. That's when I knew I had to put it inside her. She got me suited up and rode me like a champ. Cowgirl and reverse cowgirl. I loved looking at her sexy body and gorgeous ass as she filled me with pleasure. I couldn't take it any longer and put her in a lazy dog position as she had the perfect butt, and I wanted to pound it hard. I thrusted deep into her pussy. I played with her asshole while I was inside her. Experiencing all of this while watching her pleasured reaction made me explode while balls deep inside her wet pussy. WOW! I definitely should have booked for an hour. I went over the 30 min time and didn't even ask for MSOG. Even after going over the time limit, she didn't rush me at all, she was very sweet. She joined me on the bed as I relaxed, and chatted with me while still being sensual and exploring more of my body. I actually had to make myself get dressed because she was starting to get me hard again. I'm gonna assume YMMV is a given, however, this girl is phenomenal. She has taken over the #1 spot on my list. Next time its in my budget, I'm gonna book her for more than an hour. I'm also gonna assume she is open to DFK, that's just one of the things I'm not really into yet. I only do recommendations on ladies that have exceeded my level of expectations. Roxann is very gifted in the art of pleasuring a man. Guys, go and make an appointment with her while you have a chance. And learn from my mistake, book a full hour. Cheers

To the wonderful women of Cerbland a special thank you and Valentine's kiss for all the fun, pleasure, intimacy, and laughter we've shared. I love Valentine:s Day because it gives me a chance to say how much my friendships here mean to me. But my friends know that already!

I'll Be your Dream....... I'll Be your Wish....... I'll be your Fantasy....... Be Everything that you Need! Services Sensual Relaxation Massage Body Slides, to make you say OMG Sexy Soapy showers for 2 Duo massages(2 girls, 4 hands) Oh, you will never regret spoiling yourself to one of these!! Private Dance Shows Set you on Fire Girl Friend Experience Couples Welcome Schedule Friday February 15th : 3:30pm - 11:00pm 65 Bentley Ave. 613-274-7073 Saturday February 16th : 9:00am - 9:00pm 1902 Robertson Rd. 613-820-8887 Sunday February 17th : 4:00pm - 9:00pm 65 Bentley Ave. 613-274-7073 Rates Single Massage 30mins: $50 45mins: $60 60mins: $80 Duo Massage rates available upon request Couple Massage rates available upon request Contact To book an appointment please send me a PM, text me at 613-277-4328, or call the Spa at 613-274-7073 to ensure my avaliability!! Check out what others are saying about my service!! http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111731 Lifeis to be enjoyed. not just endured -Gordon B. Hincley

this is the highlights of several days I am on day 6 of my 11 week drive (wander) around the USA I spent the weekend with good friends in upstate NY and had a great time catching up (as it had been too long since I had seen them) and taking in some of the area's points of interest (museum, symphony, etc.) then I backtracked slightly to Cooperstown and the Baseball Hall of Fame then I drove the backroads of NY and PA southward ... the scenery is a lot like driving 327 south from Mont-Tremblant ... hardly a straight piece of road longer than a hundred metres ... it seemed like a good idea until fog settled in and my speed was reduced to a crawl and I didn't get half as far as I planned that evening then Philadelphia ... if you have never been to the Philadelphia Museum of Art, get there ... it is amazing ... and of course, it has a statue of Rocky out front and, an hour ago I arrived in Washington DC

Happy Valentine's Day everyone! I think this year, I've decided to celebrate "Generosity Day," where the idea is to do random acts of kindness for people in your life, or people you don't know but happen to cross paths with: http://www.ordinarycourage.com/my-blog/2013/2/13/i-heart-generosity-day-with-a-giveaway-of-course.html I think small acts like this can bring so much love in to out lives, and all of that is worth celebrating!

If I was 18-25 I might be intrigued by explicit words in a title. Now, I'd much rather see a confident woman who values herself and who wants to connect with me. I find that much more arousing. When you add transparency on top - rates, availability, location, and a real description - then I'm hooked. When I see a lot of "I will not do..." statements, I get turned off. I'd rather leave those parameters for our discussion one-on-one as we discuss a potential meeting. Beyond that, a professional photo goes a very long way to setting a mood. Hope that helps.

Hey guys, I am a sensual, happy, sexy french 20 years old cutie, 5ft5 tall, green eyes, black hair, 34 D, 120 pounds, soft tanned skin! I love my new massage job and I am looking forward to meet all of you really soon... I just cannot get enough :wink: I am available: wednesday from 9am til 11pm thursday from 10am til 7pm friday from 10am til 5:30 pm saturday from off sunday from 10am til 4pm ... ........New sexy pics that I hope you love! http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=6259 I work at a beautiful spa in the west end of ottawa and we have nice in room showers and a hot tub for you and I to enjoy :lovers: I offer amazing full body relaxation massage relieving your stress and tensions in your shoulders, taking away any pain in your back and ending with an explosion of FULL body relaxtion. slippery body slides work out of a clean, safe enviroment showers in everyroom that we can take advantage , lets get bubbly together.

Gentlemen Hi ! Im Lola beautiful,classy and sexy 23 y/o ;) and i will be in Ottawa area Feb 14 to February 16. I'm an exotic half french, half spanish beauty with chestnut brown eyes and long brown hairs.... Im a petite lady with nice curves and a skin soft as silk ... I'm a spontaneous and very warm girl, i love making the room temperature really hot : ) Making you feel like a king as it should be . . .with a magic touch and erotism, you will have an amazing time in my company. . . let your curiosity get you!! Copy the link below to see my recommendations on CERB (Canadian Escort Recommendation Board ) ! http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?ltr=L&t=120370 You must be respecful, well groomed and looking for a very special moment! Please if you have others questions regarding my massage or my services be discreet about it, the best and more appropriate is to discuss in person. For Appointment: Call at the spa (Business line only ) at 613-820-8887 ask for session with Lola OR You can reach me by email [email protected] or private message me. My availabilities : Thursday and Friday 9h to 23h / Saturday 9h to 21h See you soon for some cuddling !!! Lola xoxo

and I'm sure there are other ladies other then the only 3 that are ever mentioned when ppl ask about Moncton. there are as well a HUGE chunk of people that (a)don't take part in forming at all or (b)don't believe in writing a huge description of everything in their encounter because they believe it is no one elses business Not trying to throw my name in the ring cause I barely bother with in call in Moncton these days I've been to busy it just Peeves me that people say the ONLY girls that are worth are the ones with recommendations, its not true. Even a gross junkie could get 1 person that loves her to write a glamorous recommendation as much as a beautiful goddess could.

Hello :-) I have moved to CMJ east location. (closer to home now) Call to book an appt. 6135236199

I do a lot of searching and planning for dates through my mobile device and use the mobile site of CERB. Not only is the screen small, older iphone, but a lot of the nice features and links get removed. Would the lovely people of CERB please add their webpage link as a separate line in their adds please .. This would make looking at their sites for extra information so much easier. I thank you in advance Posted via Mobile Device

:lovers: Valentines week calls for some valentines specials $20 dollars off half hour door fee 30 Mins - 30 Dollars-- -- door fee only regular rates inside the room still apply My name is Crystal, one of my biggest pleasures in life is to please, so why not treat yourself and allow this sexy young babe take care of you. I offer amazing, non-rushed service that will have your mouth-watering. Soapy hot showers, a massage that will take away all your tensions, body slides you cant deny, i love to tease and to please. I can be an angel, or i can be your little devil. So what do you have to lose? your going to be coming back for more, and i cant wait to see you smile. Come play with me. :whipping: :dncdick:

Come get a relaxing massage by a hot little vixen xoxo About me- Sexy petite 20 year old with long red hair, sparkling green eyes! Out going, bubbly and ready to rock your world!! Providing- Flirty and dirty relaxation massage Soapy sexy showers Reverse4 massages Body slides- Duo massages(4 hands, 2girls) Hotub session9s & you'll leave happy. Schedule TODAY: 10-6 Rates- Single Massage 30mins: $55 45mins: $65 60mins: $80 Hot Tub Sessions 30mins: $70 45mins: $85 60mins: $100 Duo Massage rates also available upon request Location- 65 Bentley, Clean & cozy Contact-To book an appointment please send me a PM

Wednesday Crystal 10-6 aka "Crystal" Kennidi 10-4 aka "Kennidikummings" Hannah 10-6 NEW aka "Hannahxo" Jenna 6-11 aka "Jenna69" Lexi 3:30-11 NEW aka "Sexy Lexi" Kelly 6-11 aka "Kelly2010" www.angelstouchmassage.ca NEW WEBSITE with PICS & Schedule :smile: 3 rooms, 3 sexy ladies on per shift! Private Dance shows available upon request! Click here to see NEW pics of room: http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=3340 New Sexy Pics of our Hotties http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/member.php?u=52117 Full Body Relaxation Massage Single Massage: --------30 minutes $50. --------45 minutes $60. --------60 minutes $80. Couples Massage: 1 Attendant --------30 minute $60. --------45 minute $70. --------60 minute $90. Duo/Couples Massage:2 Attendants --------30 minute regular $100. on special for $80. --------45 minute regular $120. on special for $100. --------60 minute regular $160. on special for $130. ------HST included in prices. Longer Sessions available @ Discretion of MA ------ Tips Accepted------ ATM on site------Spacious Rooms with Private Showers------ NEW LOCATION: 65 Bentley 613-274-7073 Kelly Recommendations http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=120424 Crystal Recommendation http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82862 Kennidi Recommendations http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthr...?ltr=K&t=62190

As Always Babe Thinking about you!! Try your best to stay comfortable, and listen to the Dr's!! Your the best for keeping us all posted..... Kisses here until in person next, TXXX

Since my last recommendation, I have had a few more memorable rendezvous with my beautiful princess. This past week, I had another incredible meeting with her. Although I must say that every encounter I had with her had been incredible, this one just happened to be a little different. Since we had met many times previously, we were very comfortable with each other and we knew exactly what we liked. For me, the GFE is what I love and crave, and this was what I received from this angel of mine. We liked to take it slow - taking our time to kiss and caress each other. I absolutely loved the cooing sound and the way she tilted her head sideway with her eyes closed when I slowly kissed her neck, her earlobes and slowly moved down to other parts of her lovely body. We spared no effort to please each other sensually. One thing that was different during this last encounter was that we decided to try her new Liberator Esse chair. I knew she had it for a little while now - I should know ;-) , but, I didn't have a chance to try it until now. Let me tell you, it was so sensual and so much fun! The many positions we could do and enjoy on it were amazing! See her collage for more info. Next up - the swing! This interesting looking piece of apparatus seems amazing as well! Another different thing we did this last time was - cross-country skiing. We both enjoy outdoor activities, and it happened that we both like skiing. The feelings I had when doing something physical like skiing in the open air with the person you adored were just incredible to describe. I now look forward to enjoy other activities with her such as downhill-skiing and skating on the canal in the near future. After a sexy hot shower together and another briefer but equally enjoyable passionate time in bed, our lovely encounter concluded with a delicious spicy thai meal nearby. Her wonderful personality, sweetness, her kindness, and her way of treating me all entice me to go back to see her again and again. Till next time, sweetheart! http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/member.php?u=18359

Lucy,Kaytlyn,Stacy,Scarlett,Courtney & Misha Call Now: 613-523-6199 http://www.clubcmj.com Wednesday Feb.13th 9am-2pm: Stacy 9am-2pm: Kaytlyn 11am-6pm:Jordyn 12pm-6pm: Scarlett (Training) 2pm-9pm: Courtney 2pm-9pm: Stacy Thursday Feb.14th 9am-2pm: Kaytlyn 9am-2pm: Courtney 11am-6pm: Stacy 2pm-9pm: Jordyn 2pm-9pm: Courtney Friday Feb.15th 9am-2pm: Misha 9am-2pm: Kaytlyn 11am-6pm:Stacy 2pm-9pm: Lucy 2pm-9pm: Courtney Saturday Feb.16th 9am-2pm: Stacy 9am-2pm: Courtney 11am-6pm: Misha 2pm-9pm: Stacy 2pm-9pm: Courtney Sunday Feb.17th 9am-9pm:Courtney 9am-9pm:Stacy Misha,Stacy,Scarlett,Kaytlyn,Lucy & Courtney

I'm with Isabella ... it's Shrove Tuesday, so it's gotta be pancakes. We had fabulous blueberry pancakes, extra crispy bacon, and lots and lots of real maple syrup.

Zucchini boats stuffed with ground chicken, peppers, onions, tomatoes, spices and topped with cheese!

Grilled, then under the broiler! My first "real" meal since surgery, p;us arugula and mixed berries on the side.

The Scoop on Semen A few fun and interesting semen factoids! :biggrin: (Click to enlarge) You can learn more about this warm n creamy subject in my latest post on my erotic blog: www.SweetEmilyJ.com/blogasms.html

As much as I look better with a tan, and could use the extra Vitamin D in the winter, I don't use tanning beds anymore. I think I left well over 200 minutes in my account at the last place I went. But it's been years, so I'm sure they're long gone. Being in my thirties, I knew it wasn't going to help preserve the youthfulness of my skin, so I just stopped. But I do admittedly love the Sun and prefer to be by the pool than anywhere else when it's hot. Waterproof sunscreen!

People who fail to tip some poor soul in a resteraunt or bar that provided them good service. WTF?

thx for the kind words and support sorry for all lower case, keyboarding...hunt and peck with one hand doc took out about one inch of bone,2 inches of muscle and scraped the tendons and ligaments believe they got the "hot"spot, fingers crossed in sling for six weeks, then physiotherapy ??more chemo?? coming off pain meds, damn! lots of ice, no single malt until off the heavy duty meds take care! theliquor

What an interesting song. Really not what I expected when I first saw the images on the video. It's got this dreamy quality but the low bass kick kind of hits you in the chest even with just headphones. I want to put this through my big system at really high volume. It kind of builds and develops as it goes on too...that seems to be a common quality of goosebump songs...they've got to sort of climb...take it to a climax. Like sex. Thanks for sharing.

It's amazing to me how quickly my views are changing after such a short time on this site. I was a pretty conservative, vanilla kind of guy who had never really considered anything more that straight up guy-girl sex. Maybe it's seeing everyone being so open about different things but I find myself actively fantasizing about things like this. FMF isn't much of a stretch for most guys I guess but I'm finding myself thinking things like, "Another guy in the bedroom helping me work over a hot lady? Why not? Bring it on." I think it's more like I'd love to help fill someone's fantasies than an active fantasy of my own if that makes sense? Like, I don't fantasize about it for my own pleasure but more because it might totally rock some ladies world. Does that sound weird? Especially providers. I wonder if maybe they can get a little jaded...seen it all, most encounters are kind of ho-hum with the occasional great one thrown in. I don't know if that's the reality but I kind of fantasize about being the great one. The surprise. I've sometimes SPs comment that I look different than they expected so I guess there might be a feeling about what the encounter will be like before it happens. So you book a couple date and show up on a providers door with another super hot guy or girl and just try to rock her world. Give her an experience to remember. I'm not talking about some sort of ambush by the way...obviously it would all be discussed in advance...I'm just talking about trying to REALLY exceed expectations. Starting to think I don't have any of my own kinks or obsessions or desires...I want to learn what the other persons wants and then deliver that to them. Turning people on is a huge rush. It's a great avenue for imagination and creativity. So double pen, hells yeah. Giddy-up. It was only Ghostbusters where you weren't supposed to cross the streams but they did in the end anyway and it all worked out right?

Beautifully said and so very true. I respect everyone that comes to me and I will not deal with anyone who doesn't respect me. I also agreed greatly with the discount bit. We are not items; we are beautiful women (in all our shapes and sizes) and what we provide is important and so are we. I have no respect for those who try to wheel-n-deal a price and I do not entertain them. If a person does not respect me then they are not worth my time. Thumbs up sister!

Guys if haveing a second bio dink around gives you the willys, find your self a second woman with a strap-on and have some fun.

With the Oscar's coming, I could not resist to offer you a ANN HATHAWAY picture. for sure, an unconventional one.

It never hurts to cross reference your info with other sites. But if you are new to the hobby, it may be wise to stick to this bored. As it is tried, tested and true. New hobbiest are often times tricked as they are not familar with the industry and who is who. NOT TO SAY that ONLY ladies here are worth it meeting...but if you can not cross reference the ladies info then please go in with eyes wide open just as this poster did. You did the correct thing in double checking her age and contact info, good work! I wonder if she is working on her own will? This is a concern with such a young lady!! Perhaps the LE should be notified? I would hate to think she could be a victum of child abuse in anyway:(

I think Phantom is right, too much TV.

On a cold Ottawa day.. The dampness going through every layer.. I had the pleasure to schedule a visit with Alyssa Staxxx.. Conveniently located in the East.. I was greeted with a beautiful smile.. And a hug.. I quickly noticed that Alyssa did not spare any effort in making the room so inviting with Candles.. Scented of course.. I also was taken back by how beautiful Alyssa is.. She is lovely in both personality and physically.. I'll just say wow....I knew I was going to get treated wonderfully.. I especially loved the added surprise of a light Nuru massage.. It was wonderful and relaxing.. I had a perfect time in every way.. And highly recommend Ms. Staxxx... I planning a return session soon.. Thank you.. T

In this day and age it amazes me that anyone does't understand that "no" means "no". As far as i'm concerned it's only a business before the SP arrives . After that it's just a hope that you make a connection. A smile and a hug usually means it's going to go well . No SP should ever have to be in fear of her safety and if she does i definately agree she should leave right away. Respect and kindness usually receive the same in return.

ugh....its annoying enough that some guys think we think of them for their wallets....its even more hurtful to think that some guys will just define a lady by "money well spent" or not....and not as a person. Sorry your customer didnt get the hint...No means no. no matter what dollar-sign is attached. :(

There are only sex acts and people with particular preferences. If you identify as gay, awesome. If you don't, awesome. Sucking a dick doesn't make you gay. Whether or not a person identifies as gay is not a call others get to make.

Wow. Stopped in here this afternoon for the first time in years. The only good thing that could be said is the smoke room is well lit enough to make you realize you really dont want to go for dances here.