Anticipated changes due to Bill C-36

[Ice4fun 78396]

Will SP'S and clients find a way around this new law undoubtedly with this business continue...of course the problem is that the new law has just made it harder on everyone. For the most part the criminal risk will move from the SP to the client... in the past i had to worry about my wife discovering my hobby and think about the view society would have of me if it became know that i had been with an escort... in the future i will still have those things to worry about but i have to add the risk of criminal charges and the loss of my job if I am convicted. That is a significant increase in risk and will undoubtly cause' at best a short term negative impact on the market. Add to that the fact that most clients will never want to give their names to sp's and you have a huge increase in risk for SP's. Will i quit i don't think so.. will i be less likely to connect with someone new yes.

 

Just my opinion

[squirtingmilf 1982]

I'm going to give you all a bit of advice, been a long time member, but not an active poster. I've been seeing a lot of panic about this topic and because my other business is internet related (not in this industry) I do know a lot about internet law and how it applies to governing laws and having worked in the porn industry for numerous years, I know ways to circumvent issues of these sorts.

 

First of all, the general police do not have access to review boards or those that contain adult/explicit content. I can not speak for that being true for EVERY police department, but I do know it's certainly true for vpd, so you may want to find out if your locale has access or not. I don't know if RCMP still does or not, because of them being busted with CP (will not post those words in full on the board)

 

You do not need to shut down your web sites, they just need to be moved over to offshore web hosting and this board should be moved to offshore hosting. ie: http://shinjiru.com/ is a reliable host. The police have ZERO jurisdiction with an offshore host.

 

This board should also have a head office offshore, backpage did that in case everyone hasn't noticed, so now they can't be touched by Canadian or American laws, because of backlash when some media outlets and celebrities were complaining about them having escort advertising. Easy to do, bit costly at first, but a good lawyer can help you set that up. I'd personally change the name of the board now, set up the new name as a redirect to this name until the new laws take effect. Then switch it over to the new name completely.

 

As for we the sp's, when you think about it logically, police departments do not have the manpower to go around busting every single sp in this industry and furthermore when you think about it logically, their main targets of interest are going to be agencies, micro's and brothels with gang ties. Any place where they deem that there may be human trafficking ie: asian massage parlours, micros etc.

 

There are literally thousands of those places across Canada, they will be busy for a VERY long time, years in fact attempting to clean that up. So my suggestion to the pooners that currently partake in those, get your fixes in now, because the abolishment agencies have made it quite clear that they want those shut down as a priority.

 

Their next targets will be regular agencies ("pimps", if you will) possible minors and new/young ladies, anyone they feel that they can "rescue." Police aren't stupid and having had personal dealings with them, they know established sp's that have been in the industry for a long time aren't going to budge.

 

I work in Alberta and we have some of the strictest bylaws in the industry and I've never had a problem with police, they just ask general questions (and yes they have come to my incall) and that's about it. When they've left, all they've said was, take care of yourself, be safe, type of thing. They've never asked me anything about clients, to see my phone, laptop whatever. Total of 4 dealings with them in over 20 years, they've got better things to do.

 

What clients need to do in order to protect themselves, are not to take risks with unestablished ladies and they need to google numbers that they see in ads. Web sites are not used by vice, that was not even brought up as a means to bust "john's" and there's some type of provision in our laws that prevents them from doing so. Reviews are not used by vice either to entrap clients. So if a lady has a web site, you can find some history on her in google and she has reviews, chances are, you'll be pretty safe seeing her.

 

I'm not changing anything on my site at all, I'm not taking down my rates or services, I'm just moving my site offshore and good luck to them trying to get rid of my site. I'm not a primary target for them to begin with, so I'm not worried about any of it in the least.

[fortunateone 156618]

(this was directed to post # 51, btw, written and posted after 52 showed up lol)

 

well, in reality the risk when you always do incalls has always been exactly the same sort of risk as c36 is introducing. If you were found in a bawdy house, that's when charges can be laid, names can be named, etc. That has always been the case, and that in effect is no difference from being in the incall now or being found to be paying an sp in the future.

 

What i have a hard time following is why people seem to think that the enforcement/investigation/charging is going to somehow magically be easier for the one thing when it has rarely if ever been done for the current laws.

 

If you go to a massage parlour, you will be at risk, just the same as when LE currently decides to investigate and do surveillance on mps now, so will they do this in the future for C36. Will they be out there every day, will every day be high risk? of course not, in the past at best some mps have been singled out for a raid, and 2 or 3 clients found in the bawdy house. In the future, some mps will be singled out and a different set of 2 or 3 clients will be found in there, but the difference is, the sps will not be chargeable for being found in a bawdy house. Another similar thing will be that the mp owner will again be chargeable, for something under c36, instead of what they are currently charged with.

 

The reason most long time sps say it will be pretty much business as usual, and/or that all we are going to do is return to the way we used to advertise, is because we went thru this prior to the internet influx of tell all ads, and we didn't discuss rates/services in conversations before because doing that simply confirmed that our incalls were bawdy houses. Now doing that will confirm that a client can receive sexual services, so if a client is observed leaving said location, it can be presumed that sexual services were paid for and received. Instead of a bawdy house charge said client gets charged with something else.

 

Again, do they currently charge the clients leaving or in any sp incall? nope, so why is there this huge assumption that suddenly they are going to be able to find and charge clients leaving sp's incalls all over the country, when they haven't been doing that now. No one is coming up with extra $$.

[Nicolette Vaughn 294340]

Lets come back to this very thread 6 months from now and see how things have been enforced.

 

I agree with Fortunateone's comments. What if there was a rare police raid and a client was found in a bawdy house with the way the laws are on the books right now? You would still be subjected by LE, etc, maybe your wife would find out, etc. Why is it okay now but suddenly not okay by Dec 19 or whenever the deadline is?

 

It's only now that much awareness has been given by the media that has people worried because of getting a criminal record. I understand why...don't get me wrong but to think you are safe now isn't entirely correct either yet people are still out there discussing, asking and agreeing when it comes to certain services. People associated with this industry ( SPs and clients alike) have all been breaking the law for years!! Do you know how much time, effort and money it would take for them to enforce this new law? If I were employed in a position in law enforcement, I would be so dreading the moment when this bill becomes official law.

 

If you still want to hobby, then stick with who and what you know. There are plenty of reputable and well established SPs here with evidence to prove they are legitimate. Don't stray into unknown territories and you will be fine.

 

I understand the worry of not wanting to get a record however the fear mongering that is happening when it isn't even law yet, is getting tiresome to be quite honest. Worrying and speculating about this when things aren't even finalized isn't good for anyone. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing all the doomsday b.s. If a person thinks that's how it's going to be then that will be the outcome. The sky isn't going to fall. Certain changes will be implemented and business will carry on but a bit differently.

 

Yes I admit I've worried and speculated but I'm not going to let it get me down. There are many changes that I've had to adjust to while in this business and I adjusted. To me, this is just another brief period of adjusting. In some ways, it will do me a favor. No longer will I have to read "Rates, menu, location available?" I never want to see those words again! Now they will HAVE to say "Hello" to me!

 

If a person feels out of sorts and has hesitation then it's probably best not to stay in the game. And this sort of feeling can apply towards any type of decision in a person's life. Not just this issue.

 

Stop worrying! There are always alternatives such as established SPs who know how to be discrete!

[Phaedrus 209521]

I have read through this thread in reasonably great detail, and I see a lot of, "I think that they won't....," and, "I hope that they don't ....," but underlying it all is the stark reality that barring the fall of the government in the next few days this will become law of the land.

 

Yes, it will become law, but the thinking and hoping is down to two things: how the courts will interpret the stupidly vague legislation, and LE's attitude to actually enforcing it. Neither of these is really knowable in advance.

 

What has not been brought up to this point is I believe, a very practical point. Assuming that ads in one form or another are still accessible to prospective clients, and assuming that police and courts will pretend that none of the code words actually refer to sexual services (which currently go undefined), there comes a point at which a client must communicate with a lady. At THAT point he becomes open to criminal charges, without even having to meet the lady or complete any financial transaction.

 

I don't see why. What's been criminalized is paying for sexual services, and that's not something that happens without payment. Just arranging a meeting? I don't see why that won't still be legal.

 

To get to the crux of the matter, the question is, how does one initiate a contact without incriminating oneself, while still assuming that the police are not total idiots?

 

(snip)

 

I spent the last couple of days writing some emails to SP's, some of whom I have met and some of whom I have yet to meet, without sending a single one. My intention is to lay some groundwork, introduce myself, whatever. The question ultimately becomes how do I communicate both now and later and still feel protected. Should I send those emails or PM's now?

 

As others have said, if you don't discuss particular services then nothing illegal has happened. How much of an impact this will have will vary between clients. The ones that are happy to meet someone they think they'll like and let the encounter evolve will be able to operate pretty much as they do now; the ones who are anxious to ensure that particular services are available are going to have a much harder time of it.

 

As for sending emails or PMs now: any conversation you have now, or at any time before C36 becomes law, is just as legal as it was last week, or last month, or last year. The pre-Bedford laws are still in place for now. Nothing in C36 is retrospective, so it can't be used to prosecute anything anyone did before the day it becomes law. PM/email away! I actually think this is a very good idea: the more you can build a list of contacts and expectations and relations now, the better off you'll be later.

 

I trust the women that I have met, utterly and completely. Is it simply the ability to continue to trust in others that I have to content myself with?

 

Why would that change? A change in the law doesn't affect who the ladies are. They'll still be the same people.

 

But I can say, and even the Chief of police in many area's has stated that they simply do not have the funds to prosecute. The only funds they have is the " easy to catch" so in other words street level, forced, and trafficked. They can not risk the little money they have on an advertiser that is clearly stating " I do not sell sexual services" . To go after a client who enquired, or an advertiser for time, is far too much expense, therefore would be a waste of funds that could have been used for exploited and underage.

The last thing that LE wants, is too go threw all of that to have a " case dismissed" from lack of supporting evidence.

 

This is absolutely true. And I'd add: LE are answerable to the community in which they operate, and to some extent their priorities will reflect the concerns of that community. And most of the community doesn't know that the independent SP discreetly working in an apartment downtown, or the clients that see her, exist... and so LE gain little from taking action against her or her clients. The more visible sections of the industry - street workers and their clients in particular - are far more likely to be targeted.

 

As for your question email or PM? Well go ahead and enquire for the time donation, but as far as fine details, I am sure you will see more SP's asking you to voice call. There is no way that they can trace voice calls during or after. Do not enquire for sexual services plain and simple. Foe a new lady on the scene, don't even ask on voice call, wait till your behind closed doors and ask away. No entrapment is allowed in Canadian laws.

 

Although it should be noted that Alan Young, when testifying before the Senate last month, described C36 as "legalized entrapment". That one will go to the judges, I think.

 

But it's fair to say that new entrants to the business will have a far harder time establishing themselves in a post-C36 world than they did beforehand, unless they can find a well-established provider to publicly vouch for them.

[roamingguy 300291]

I've been saying this from the get go. No extra money has gone to police for enforcement of C36. And the police aren't parked at Timmies right now having a donut just chomping at the bit waiting to enforce it.

This isn't even a police driven legislation. This is a MacKay bill in response to the SCC decision on Bedford. But to the police, this is just a new law used to enforce prostitution offences...it's not some ideological/philosophical /quasi religious calling for them as it appears to be for MacKay, Joy Smith and others

Some simple common sense solutions, no discussion of sex for money, ladies, call yourselves escorts, not prostitutes. Guys, don't look for a menu of services, nor ask, and ladies, don't advertise one

We all know what's going on with C36. The ladies and gentlemen who can adapt will still carry on in this lifestyle. Those that don't adapt, they're the ones who may be the first C36 casualties

A rambling

 

RG

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

A nice addition to this site may be an "industry reference" system. Whereas, if an established provider, trusted with reputation could verify a new lady. They would have to had met face to face, perhaps work together at least once. Then vouch for her, that she is working legally and safely.

[oldblueeyez 15475]

I've been noticing an abundance of ads on BP lately which seem too good to be true, and I'm wondering if it might be LE gearing up for the future?

 

There could also be an opposite of a reference system: a 'collaborator list'. LE would have more successful prosecutions with the cooperation of SPs. If a SP gives you up to LE, post that SP on the Collaborator List as a warning to others. Seems kind of East German Stasi-ish though.

 

It didn't occur to me that so many guys here could be affected by a criminal record. I suppose there are many jobs which a person could lose with a criminal record: lawyer, doctor, accountant, police (and yes, we know some of you coppers are just as guilty as us :P ). I'm lucky in a way because I am in charge of every aspect of my life (no wife, no boss, no professional association bullshit), with the CRA being the only people I might, 'might', listen to. lol

[Studio 110 by Sophia 150333]

I've been noticing an abundance of ads on BP lately which seem too good to be true, and I'm wondering if it might be LE gearing up for the future?

 

There could also be an opposite of a reference system: a 'collaborator list'. LE would have more successful prosecutions with the cooperation of SPs. If a SP gives you up to LE, post that SP on the Collaborator List as a warning to others. Seems kind of East German Stasi-ish though.

 

It didn't occur to me that so many guys here could be affected by a criminal record. I suppose there are many jobs which a person could lose with a criminal record: lawyer, doctor, accountant, police (and yes, we know some of you coppers are just as guilty as us :P ). I'm lucky in a way because I am in charge of every aspect of my life (no wife, no boss, no professional association bullshit), with the CRA being the only people I might, 'might', listen to. lol

 

I highly doubt that LE are posting ads at this time, as it is not even a law yet. It would be counter effective for them to do that at this point. With that said, this is why new ladies will have a hard time breaking into the scene. IF LE did post ads, ya I can imagine they would be too good to be true, hot 23 yrs, blond, busty....but also ads would have to stating "sexual services" or you would have to ask for "sexual services" to build a case on you. If you don't ask for that, or respond to an ad that advertises it, then they have absolutely no case and would move onto the next dude who may not be so wise. Even on that note, they will bait those who are trying to pimp the girl, or the ones going after " barley legal" ads.

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

There could also be an opposite of a reference system: a 'collaborator list'. LE would have more successful prosecutions with the cooperation of SPs. If a SP gives you up to LE, post that SP on the Collaborator List as a warning to others. Seems kind of East German Stasi-ish though.

 

 

I've seen other hobbyists make reference to sps telling authorities who their clients are and really don't understand where this is coming from. Where is the logic of this?

 

She makes no money from this, looses her clients and can't make new clients. Why would she do this?

 

I sure as hell would never "help" the authorities get prosecutions under this law.

[squirtingmilf 1982]

I've seen other hobbyists make reference to sps telling authorities who their clients are and really don't understand where this is coming from. Where is the logic of this?

 

She makes no money from this, looses her clients and can't make new clients. Why would she do this?

 

I sure as he'll would never "help" the authorities get prosecutions under this law.

 

Exactly, that makes zero sense to me as well. The only time I've ever heard of a reputable sp giving up anything to do with a client is when she experienced abuse.

 

And what would an sp have to gain by outing a "normal" client? Nothing! The next thing you know, she'd be blacklisted on reviews boards from all clients, this type of logic makes no sense what so ever.

[Ice4fun 78396]

I've been noticing an abundance of ads on BP lately which seem too good to be true, and I'm wondering if it might be LE gearing up for the future?

 

There could also be an opposite of a reference system: a 'collaborator list'. LE would have more successful prosecutions with the cooperation of SPs. If a SP gives you up to LE, post that SP on the Collaborator List as a warning to others. Seems kind of East German Stasi-ish though.

 

It didn't occur to me that so many guys here could be affected by a criminal record. I suppose there are many jobs which a person could lose with a criminal record: lawyer, doctor, accountant, police (and yes, we know some of you coppers are just as guilty as us :P ). I'm lucky in a way because I am in charge of every aspect of my life (no wife, no boss, no professional association bullshit), with the CRA being the only people I might, 'might', listen to. lol

 

Unfortunately in today's real world more and more organizations are implementing codes of conduct for employees that would result in significant negative implications if the employee is even charged with an offense.

 

While there is fairly straight forward legal guidelines for dismissal of employees for off duty behavior ( ie millhaven criteria http://hrinsider.ca/homepage/discipline-can-you-discipline-employees-for-off-duty-conduct ) which have been established over time by the courts the reality is the more public a role you play with a company the greater likelihood that the employer can and will dismiss you if you are charged with an offense.

 

In many cases the employer faced with an employee who has been charged will try to reduce their exposure and will dismiss the employee and take the risk of a wrongful dismissal lawsuit... the payouts are not nearly as expensive as you might think.

 

Just my opinion

[Ice4fun 78396]

I've seen other hobbyists make reference to sps telling authorities who their clients are and really don't understand where this is coming from. Where is the logic of this?

 

She makes no money from this, looses her clients and can't make new clients. Why would she do this?

 

I sure as he'll would never "help" the authorities get prosecutions under this law.

 

I don't think the risk of this behavior increases because of this new law. If you were dealing with reputable SP'S.

 

Just my opinion

[Guest S****r]

I've seen other hobbyists make reference to sps telling authorities who their clients are and really don't understand where this is coming from. Where is the logic of this?

 

She makes no money from this, looses her clients and can't make new clients. Why would she do this?

 

I sure as hell would never "help" the authorities get prosecutions under this law.

 

The only reason I could ever imagine an escort giving a client's name to LE would be if he had committed a crime against her, such as assault or robbery. Any other situation would be nonsensical, as stated by others.

[Gabriella Laurence 301887]

The only reason I could ever imagine an escort giving a client's name to LE would be if he had committed a crime against her, such as assault or robbery. Any other situation would be nonsensical, as stated by others.

And people have to understand that it is and always has been a possibility, bill C-36 or not.

[fortunateone 156618]

I've seen other hobbyists make reference to sps telling authorities who their clients are and really don't understand where this is coming from. Where is the logic of this?

 

She makes no money from this, looses her clients and can't make new clients. Why would she do this?

 

I sure as hell would never "help" the authorities get prosecutions under this law.

 

 

Also, as has been explained to these guys MANY times, what is LE hold on the sp? she can legally advertise, she can legally host incalls, so what exactly does he think can be held over her head as a potential threat in order to cooperate with LE to do this?

 

This is a level of paranoia and fear mongering that has absolutely no place in this discussion or in the terms of the C36 itself This kind of paranoia is designed to create issues now for all the established sps as well as any new ones, imo, and completely pointless and without merit.

[Evangeline Grace 590]

Have you considered stating on your blog that you are simply an author and this blog is for fantasy purposes only and not based on real events? That would probably cover you. I mean it isn't illegal to write adult pornographic material.

[Guest Lo***si*****e]

Excellent read in rabble.ca.

 

Bill C 36: No safety or security for sex workers

[Nicolette Vaughn 294340]

Have you considered stating on your blog that you are simply an author and this blog is for fantasy purposes only and not based on real events? That would probably cover you. I mean it isn't illegal to write adult pornographic material.

 

Better yet.. write a "fictional story" on the internet that has nothing to do with an SP's website. Clients can go there to read it. Because it is not linked to her website, nothing can be proved. I'm thinking of implementing this as way to describe what a client can expect.

 

I enjoy writing so this is what they can read and know what to expect so there is no confusion. I will not make a blind appointment without knowing what the client wants but I will not be discussing services over the phone or in text anymore either.

 

They will be given a weblink to go and they can read my story. If the client wants to meet, he can call back with simply a "Yes, I'd like to meet for xxx amount of time" under the assumption that it is for time and companionship only.

 

I've always been a clear communicator with my clients and this will not change. It will just be done a different way now.

[EmilyRushton 253352]

What I am confused about is why all the emphasis on not being able to advertise your services anymore? Who cares! Clients are booking us for our time and for who we are.

 

Words and phrases like sensual and romantic or wild and adventurous can direct a client to the right lady as easy as listing a menu.

 

I have never had a menu in the last 5 years(except when working with an agency in the past on occasion years back) nor will I discuss any services with anyone. Good clients don't care what burger toppings are awaiting them. They want to spend time with the lady who caught their attention. Call me naive but when people contact me to spend time with me, the email exchange is more on us getting to know one another and rarely if ever on can I get xxx and does yhc include ccc. (and yes 90% of those dates are declined and on my blog)

 

Give it time, educate people and enjoy what comes from it. It will be a learning process for all of us.

[mrgreen760 37785]

Doris Day summed it up pretty well.

 

"Que Sera, Sera

Whatever will be, will be

The future's not ours to see

Que Sera, Sera

What will be, will be"

 

Peace

MG

[roamingguy 300291]

What I am confused about is why all the emphasis on not being able to advertise your services anymore? Who cares! Clients are booking us for our time and for who we are.

 

Words and phrases like sensual and romantic or wild and adventurous can direct a client to the right lady as easy as listing a menu.

 

I have never had a menu in the last 5 years(except when working with an agency in the past on occasion years back) nor will I discuss any services with anyone. Good clients don't care what burger toppings are awaiting them. They want to spend time with the lady who caught their attention. Call me naive but when people contact me to spend time with me, the email exchange is more on us getting to know one another and rarely if ever on can I get xxx and does yhc include ccc. (and yes 90% of those dates are declined and on my blog)

 

Give it time, educate people and enjoy what comes from it. It will be a learning process for all of us.

 

I know most of the ladies I see don't have menus at all, and are GREAT companions. These ladies didn't need to advertise a menu of services because, as Emily says, they were booked for their time and who they are. And when C36 passes, the ladies I would avoid are those who have profiles/websites which list a menu of services or make it clear they are providers of sexual services. Those are the ones who, in my opinion will bring attention to themselves and their clients, and it will deter new clients.

My experience in this lifestyle has been great, and that is in large part to seeing ladies who offered their time and companionship, not a menu of services. And that was pre C36.

Ladies and gentlemen who are menu focused now need to adapt. It doesn't mean your experiences in this lifestyle will be bad, just you can't discuss specific services. But what a lady and gentlemen do in private will now have to be just between you two

The only menu to come into play now is when the waiter/waitress hands a lady and gentlemen their dinner menu when you take the lady out for a dinner date ;-)

A rambling

 

RG

[Meaghan McLeod 179664]

Funny, I've been advertising as if the law is in force.

 

I've met many new wonderful clients that are fast becoming regulars. Not one has asked for specifics. Our time together has flowed beautifully, and I'm enjoying my time genuinely.

 

Difference is that there are no longer scripted actions. It all flows nicely.

 

I'm not complaining anymore about c36. It will get struck down. I still hate McKay and Harper, but it's gonna work out fine.

[Guest N***he**Ont**y]

It seems a bit strange in some of the wording of this bill where people who provide security for a provider,be an assistant to a provider, provide transportation to a provider we could all be charged and yet if it is service offered to the public at large then said support provider cannot be charged. I have change the wording on my site a bit so that it reads services for Entertainers hopefully which could get around some of this wording.

[Guest Lo***si*****e]

Has anyone given any thought to the wisdom of making recommendations on CERB, in light of this new legislative environment?

As a hobbyist, I wanted very much to give a recommendation, but am now wondering whether it is wise, even though CERB handles are anonymous. Perhaps the best way to handle it would be to recommend, but to be non-explicit, like evolving SP ads themselves.

I would value the input of those more experienced in these issues than I am.