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This troubles me. It's NOT a date. A date is between two adults and can be any number of activities (paid or free) and does not necessarily result in sex. When you hire an escort, the implication is that sex is involved. Whether or not you actually take advantage of the sex factor is up to you, but I go to a call expecting to fuck a guy.

When you try to convince yourself that you are not paying for sex, that you are simply "seeing guests in your home" or "on a date," you are blurring client/provider boundaries, and many of us work hard to keep our work and personal lives separate. We provide a service, a fantasy service even, but that is all it is. "Berlin" is simply the fantasy that I portray. Trying to befriend an escort is like trying to befriend an actor based on a character they played--that's not who they are.

I have noticed that many individuals on this site (hobbiests and providers alike) have an aversion to the word “work.” As a sex workers' rights activist, this has always bothered me. It goes without saying that there is a lot of stigma surrounding our work. I believe the key to achieving respect is having people recognize that what we do is legitimate work. It also bothers me that people think that by calling this “work” it means I dislike what I do. The truth is I love my work. I am a teacher and a massage provider and I love both. That being said, I wouldn’t teach my students for free, nor would I do massage for free because I believe I provide a valuable service and that I am deserving of the money I receive. There are many fortunate people in this world who truly enjoy going to work each day, and I’m lucky to be one of them. Hope to see you all at Pride tomorrow. I’ll be carrying the “Sex Work is Work!” banner. (I also wanted to add that my comments are in regard to what happens on CERB, not in regard to what happens during private encounters).

I have referred MANY of my clients that I have met from other advertising sites to CERB & COWBOYS DIARY!!! The way it usually comes up is because, when we meet, they are always so surprised at how nice I am (seriously...) that I do not rush them or act grumpy. and that I give them a feel that they are wanted and valued...They usually explain that they are shocked due to the bad encounters that they have experienced!! I always take the time to explain to them that CERB is the place to be be because: 1. It's moderated, NO BULL SHIT..and if there is , they are OUT!!! 2. ONLY positive feedback...:-D 3. The ladies on here are honest, truthful and are looking to keep their clients happy & returning for more ;-) 4. Sometimes easier to research, get a better feel of the lady by viewing her posts.. And I tell em about the cowboys diary because this way they can be aware of who to avoid!! :butt: I have even made it a point to tell some over the telephone when they call me, if I have a feel that I may not be their type or they have concerns with their personal safety from past experiences, again I refer them to these sites.:cool: Unfortunately, many of the other advertising places are full of B.S. scams, & baiting & switching, so I like to warn as many as I can. I HATE, HATE, HATE the fools that rip guys off, try to trick them or are just simply full of shit, ( especially the bait & switch stuff...) they eff it up for the genuine sp's. I LOVE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE EXPOSED FOR ALL TO SEE ON THE cowboy's diary!!!! :-D CERB is the place to be...nowhere is perfect..but this place has a much higher rate of pleasure, satisfaction & happiness all around than anywhere else!! I think it is beneficial to EVERYONE to indicate these sites to as many as possible!!!

Sex workers and their clients are highly stigmatized and so I think it's normal for one to want to separate him or herself, though it is also delusional. When I first started stripping, I told myself and others "Well you see, there is no penetration and no exchange of bodily fluids, so it's not prostitution." Yeah I rub my nude body all over guys, but I'm not like those nasty prostitutes was essentially what I was saying. Over time, I have accepted that I am just like escorts. Sure, I don't offer FS or BJ, but it's pretty damn close and ultimately not really that different. There is no need to distinguish myself as a way of justifying my work. I accept that I am a sex worker and there is nothing wrong with this! I feel this is what you are trying to do, S_A. There is also a lot of stigma surrounding clients. "You're so low class to hire a prostitute. You're paying for sex because you can't get any in real life. I can't believe you would sleep with a hooker. Did she give you a disease?" I have heard so many clients say things like "I'm not like the rest of the guys you see" assuming all the guys I see are creepy assholes which is simply not true! There is the need to distinguish himself. Maybe it makes you feel better to say "She's a guest in my home and if she likes me and wants to be intimate with me, then she may" but ultimately you are paying for sex and there is nothing wrong with this. I'm a lot happier now that I've stopped constantly justifying myself by distinguishing myself from hookers, and maybe you would be happier if you accepted what you are doing and stopped distinguishing yourself from a John. I just woke up so forgive me if this is not perfectly clear.

The brazen young man with a 'tude, Said, "Yo, I'm a good looking dude," He figured his "date," Should be paid half the rate, As he admired himself, in the nude. So, he surfed the CERB ads with that thought, Thinking, "She won't reject me, I'm hot!" He made a few choices, And imagined the voices, Scream his name as he found the right spot. But no one accepted this snob, And no one would touch his wee knob, You see, this rude jerk, Never thought of this work, As a valid and substantive job. The moral, my friends, is quite true, Whether booking with Jane, Beth or Sue, When you bargain a session, You'll soon learn a lesson, That ends with your palm, full of goo.

Forgive me if my bitchiness comes about but this is the cost of doing business and it costs money to make money and we have all paid our dues to get into that SP only section. There are no exceptions. We all have mortgages, bills, expenses and schooling to take care of as well. Sorry for not having warm feelings towards you right now but your comments directed towards E-C seemed arrogant and in poor taste considering E-C most likely finances this site.

I actually prefer if they would report it to CK's Diary before anywhere else. CK's Diary is the de facto clearing house for bad dates on CL. Even though CK hasn't posted much in cerb lately his dedication and hard work is very much appreciated.

I agree and always call this profession my "fun job or work". It is like dating without all the drama and sometimes heartbreak. Additional Comments: I like that Pete and most people about 95%, who I meet with do the same.

"Date", "call", "meeting", "appointment", "session" - can all be used and can all be viewed differently. It is no different than some individuals who do not like use of the terms "service provider", "prostitute", "hooker" etc. So in the end like many other things it comes down to personal preferences and comfort with the individual and how they chose to communicate. It does not necessarily mean the person that makes a 'date' reference has intentions to cross any lines between the established roles. Agreed, in hiring an escort there is the expectation that sex is involved. However, men hire escorts for non sexual encounters too - not because they have an agenda to become romantic with them outside of their 'work'. Sometimes people just want to talk, have dinner, they may be required to attend a social function with a companion. It is not always about the sex.

This thread has gone far enough, IMHO. What was raised on the other board should remain there. It seems to me that we should keep focus on what CERB is all about, a community that promotes respect and safety of all, SP and hobbyists, in this activity of escorting. I met Karine, and she is a wonderful person, a beautiful woman that takes the services she offers very seriously. I have a great respect for her, as I do have for the ladies of CERB that allow us, hobbyists, to live exciting experiences, encounters full of fun. May I suggest that we end this thread by giving all our support to Karine.

I will have to disagree here.. I think that's an overly narrow definition of the word date, which can mean many things. I've always used it (in escorting and outside of escorting) to refer to an appointment... which I believe is actually part of the definition. I just don't think we should be picking apart terms here.. I believe if we're going to talk about the work being recognized as such, it has to become something more than this partial legal loophole that only a portion of people really know about or understand... terminology isn't going to change people's views of us... as nice as that would be.

WOW !!!! Thats really not nice to people juge me again... seriously im just a little girl want to do this job for fun and not cause i need money. cause i like to have fun with mature guys. And i was doing that for free before.. just decided to charge instead do it for free. why not ? and yess thats happend sometime i do lots of client but i just love it. i take time to shower between each appointment. and im really organized in my time. i have a lots of pre-booking so its easy for me to set up my day. usually when i start a day i have 4 or 5 appointment already book from the day before. and maybe one client per week dont show or cancel last minute. after that i put his number on my black list if he cancell like 5 minute before or just dont answer his phone anymore. i try to do my best all the time. and i never talked bad about nobody. i even dont participate in that kind of discution cause my english is pore and people juge me. and yess i can admite that affect me. i would like to be builingual... but how many of you can write in english and in french too ?? probably not a lot. and im only 19 years old and im proud to be able to write already that good in english. i have dream in life like everybody and i will not have a burnout cause sometime i try to take vacation and after 1 or 2 day i come back cause maybe im nympho.. dont know about that stuff. but i like have sexe all the time. i never had problem like that when i was in mtl i just have determination in life and i want to go far. i have goal and i will be accomplish at 25 years old im sure. i woke up everymorning at 8h20 at 9 im at the gym with my personnal trainner till 10h30 at 11h i jump in the shower at 12 im ready to start. thats it .. i work till im tired and after i go to bed and start again. this is my LIFE and my ROUTINE. and i like it like that. i will also appreciate people stop to talk about me cause is really affect my feeling.

Lefty, While agree with most of what you said, I have to draw the line on your comment about Emma's motivation to post a no show. This is a review board for Providers as well as Hobbyists. If this character doesn't fit into the CERB community of respectful and intelligent people, then they should be pointed out. If he booked an appointment and then called after the set time he was supposed to show that he had a medical emergency was disrespectful. There is probably more to Emma's story than she cares to share here in public. The ladies who travel spend considerable amounts of money for flights, suitable lodging food and they depend on hobbyists for a living. When a client books an appointment the provider set aside time for the prospective client and sometimes have to cancel other prospective clients to fit their schedule. I have often heard that its not uncommon for ladies to start preparing at least 1-2 hours before the client shows. They don't get compensated for this prep time. I can fully understand Emma's and other girls point of view on this. Yes shit happens and I'm quite certain that if she felt that the story was genuine, she wouldn't be ranting about. If I dare cancel my dentist appointment on the day I'm supposed to show up, you can be certain I will be billed for it. If you put yourself in the girls shoes for one day, you can understand how frustrating these situations can be for them Just my humble opinion. ATH

I do not often post to these threads, because frankly you guys are so perceptive and so witty it seems anything I may want to say is already said. However Emma?s thread and similar recent threads concern me, so I am motivated to give you some observations and thoughts this afternoon. Here goes: - This whole SP/Hobbyist community is a unique subculture. It is not mainstream. it is not conventional. Those who participate in it, freely choose to do so. In doing so they accept risk. In doing so they expect reward. I know this because I have had amazing experiences in this sub-culture. That is my reward for participating. It is not risk free because it has to be secretive. (Ha! Tiger?s Wood?s recent grief would pale as to what I would go through if my secret was out.) Fellow hobbyists may express their awards and risks different than I, but there would be similarities. The awards and risks of an SP would be described differently than a hobbyist. - - CERB in my view greatly enhances the sophistication of this sub-culture. I have been a hobbyist for a long time but discovered CERB only two years ago. With CERB you obtain insight in what SP?s and other hobbyist are thinking. It is valuable. My experienced (i.e. reward) has been enhanced many times over because of CERB. Through CERB I have met incredible ladies, along with gaining insight and understanding as to how to behave. These insights have helped me understand the type of client I want to be. As well my risk is greatly mitigated. The difference between meeting a lady through CERB versus CL or a local agency is huge. - Today, the CERB membership list has 18,186 entries. I do not think I have said anything so far that is surprising or controversial to most CERBIES. In fact it is rather obvious. Participating in this culture need not be complicated, and that is my concern. Given the sophistication of CERB, why has there been so much chatter lately about bad behaviour, like price negotiating, time wasting messages and so on? Why is a great lady like Emma compelled to post about a no-show? This raises a fundamental question in my mind; do these discussions indicate the overall behaviour level of participants in our SP/hobbyist community is deteriorating when logic tells us that it should be improving because of CERB and similar forums? Or, on the other hand, are these discussions an indication that our community is sophisticated enough to criticise itself and that is the precise way we move our community forward? I do not know the answer but offer the following additional comments (these comments may not relate to one another): - 18,186 is a big number. Many of our members are obviously not serious about participating in our community in a reasonable way. Many will simply not get it, so there will always be bad behaviour. Others have expressed this, but to move our CERB community along, can there be a weeding out process? Can Emma?s no show for example be banned from CERB? - Can the Newbie?s section be more to the point as to how to interact with SP?s both on line and in an encounter? - I am in a small market and we are fortunate to have some CERB ladies visiting. It surprises me to see that some often advertise on CL as well as CERB. It seems to me that increases their risk of a bad client. - Price negotiating boggles my mind. In my conventional world I am always negotiating, being analytical, logical and so on. I seek out SP?s for the pure pleasure of an uninhabited fun filled encounter. Duh!! To start that encounter by talking money seems totally counterproductive to the experience. Why would anyone do that? I do not get it? - I am fortunate in that I have never have to cancel, but if I did, it just seems so obvious that I would make every effort to advise and apologize. (Yeah, grovel if I have to!). Those are some thoughts from a normally quiet CERBIE. Overall, my point is that CERB is a great forum but there is always ways to improve on great things that is what keeps them great. The way we behave with one another is integral to maintain the value of our community, so lets always be sure we are looking for ways to improve and keep the standards high. Many of you frequent posters already do such a great job at that and full credit to you.

I will also start by saying that this is not a dig at mod, but i do support what the ladies here have said so far.... many of us cerb ladies also advertise on CL....we have to make the best of all the options available to us to get the most traffic possible....not so many gents are as lucky to know about cerb and it doesnt mean that the ohes who dont know about cerb are all rude or disrespectful (as many ladies will claim of the guys that phone them up via CL)....just the same as the guys cant generalize all the gals who post on CL as pimp-ruled scam artists (not saying anyone has said that...by any means) I definitely agree that if you choose a lady off of CL and are going off of zero research then you are indeed taking a chance....a huge chance. Thats why I feel it is so important that you not judge the source of the information....or the tingle in your pants at the sight of the photo.......but the easy tool of escort research.....google a name and city of a gal! go by a girl that has been reviewed *somewhere*......but take a stab in the dark at a "too good to be true" price and picture of someone whos "new to the biz" and if you ignore your conscience....you have only a hard lesson to learn. Dont bash the site....bad apples exist everywhere...even on here (before they're ruled out of course)....dont let the bad apple ruin you, let it make you wiser in the future.

Of course they are not all bad but it's a FREE UNMODERATED forum that is easily exploited and abused (SO ALL THE SCAMERS FLOCK TO IT) so I say assume they are all potentially BAD and any that your interested in come research or ask about here. If not your at high risk (AS THE ORIGINAL POSTER FOUND OUT FIRST HAND) of getting someone BAD! You need to support the good sites, the ones who do not allow the scams and bait and switch. It costs money to police the sites (Moderate them) as someone is doing a job (Like me) where CL no one is moderating and no one could care less!! Support the sites that fight for you!! That kick the scum off and have integrity! It may cost a few dollars on sites like escorts-canada to advertise but it's worth every penny as you will not be mixed in with all the scammers and you would be supporting a site that fights for this industry! CERB ONLY EXISTS BECAUSE OF REVENUE FROM ESCORTS-CANADA so by support a site like CL and coming here to DEFEND it and PROMOTE IT is a BIG KICK IN THE FACE and I think very shortly we will have to change our policies here if this trend continues. EC is not going to support cerb if stuff like this continues. Tulsa, you use this site but are supporting CL you don't even have an ad on EC (And I don't see you with an ad on EC in the past unless it was under a different name). You have not purchased a banner on cerb or done anything to help financially support this site. You seam to just use everything you can that is FREE for you and people like this usually do not consider the big picture. I am not sure what direction cerb is going to go but if people continue to do this I don't see the future being all that bright for cerb. CL is not going to change any time soon. For those "Good" ladies who support it... well your just making it easier for the scammers as your part of the problem as your ads are the ones that help bring traffic for them and your giving the scammers a place to go! Your actually doing harm to the industry by supporting such a place and I know many of you don't consider the effects you actions have on the industry and only really consider what is best for you personally right at this moment (and I don't blame you for that) but please keep this in mind... CL is turning the clock backwards in this industry - it's making MORE AND MORE scammers (Bait and switch, robberies, pimps, etc...) all get involved as it's free and it's a place they can easily exploit!! AND THEY DO!! Think of this... How many guys for the FIRST TIME call a girl from CL and get bait and switched or scammed in some way (Have a horrible experience?) ... those guys who have a BAD experience off CL may NEVER use a escort again. Who looses here? You a little... but future generations of escorts are loosing BIG time as this is a paradox (What you are doing now will greatly effect the future for this industry) Some of you complain about SLOW TIMES? Wonder why less guys are booking escorts? Wonder where that money is now going? (A lot of it - as we can clearly see here is going to the bait and switch, pimps and scammers on CL) - Sometimes I think I am the only one who see's this!?!? These people are taking YOUR clients and scamming them (with no concern for themselves) and they are giving you all a BAD NAME!! and you just let them do it!! and worst of all some of you SUPPORT these sites like CL!?!?!? ?!!? Now this is happening MORE AND MORE all the time as CL gains popularity! Why is CL gaining popularity??? Because some of the good ladies are supporting it and that is just a shame! I know a lot of you use it because it has high traffic but remember... you are pushing the industry backwards when you do this! I CAN not allow people to promote CL here because it's VERY damaging to our entire industry and I look at the BIG PICTURE as I would like to have a job in 10 years!! If the ladies who are not scammers would just abandon it and leave it for the scammers it would loose popularity. Some of you think "It's free" .. it's not! It comes at a price and your just not getting it!! Every dollar that goes to a scammer is a dollar out of the pockets of the ladies who deserve it! Now we have American sites getting desperate to compete with CL and CVibe for instance now has the same free exploitable text ads that CL has. Is this really where the industry is headed??? If this continues 10 years from now your all going to be scratching you heads and pointing fingers at other things saying it must be that reason why this business is gone to crap!! Just remember CL is the reason and your supporting it now you and still in the business in 10 years you will deserve what you have to look forward to. You think I am over exaggerating? I have been involved in the industry since 1992 and I have seen the trends and how things are effected by bad industry choices. I have watched strip clubs go from million dollar establishments to just getting by as the industry was exploited with lap dancing. I watched massage spa's pop up on every corner and kill off a big chunk of the strip club and escort industry money. I watched the internet grow and start to turn power back to the independent escorts and start to make the industry respectable in the media while the pimps and scammers started to loose power... and now I see sites like CL that are giving power back to the pimps and the scammers and some of you are allowing this to happen inadvertently. See you in 10 years as the industry is not headed in a good place with sites like CL. Now is the time to stop this trend or pay the price down the road.

I have no idea what assumptions and glory you gentlemen are talking about here, but I'll say all there definitely WAS glory in this session -and it was all mine! Kayleigh is an incredible woman, I'm happy to have met her, and you too spud! Come back to Ottawa please Kayleigh!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I have been following this thread and thus far have kept my mouth shut. And Karine has not chimed in, so at this point, it's just speculation as to whether she or someone out to bash her or she wrote it. And I don't think she needs to justify or defend herself in this manner - again not what CERB is about, right? Nevertheless, we are commenting on something written on CL. I don't believe it should be discussed here on CERB. It's negative and not in the spirit of what this board is all about. Cheek to Cheek was the only other member commenting to point that out. I guess it will be up to the MOD to correct me if I am wrong. With that being said, my only other comment would be - leave it where it was initiated from - on CL.

I agree with you Grass_Hopper. I didn't know who he was talking about. And I agree fully that it's the business of the SP to manage her own schedule and the number of clients she sees. As a hobbyist, I care about the ladies here, and I am grateful that some ladies of your quality, and I feel the same about Karine, offer their services. Karine is a very nice lady, with a great personality, and she manages her business with enthousiasm and professionalism. My untasteful remark of the "13th" was irrelevant and of bad taste. And like the motto of CERB: " if you dont have anything nice to say...Please dont say anything at all !" I learn my lesson.

No braggin, but I am amazed at what really goes on at strip clubs. It wasn't until my 40's that I found much more available in strip clubs. I think that many don't experience it due to their age. Just as many Sp's prefer older gentlemen I think that was goes on in the clubs also depends on your age. I can assure that alot of action is going on in the CR's, and I am no Romeo or particularly good looking.

Just thought I would throw it out there.... I personally feel kissing is more intimate than intercourse.

I'd like to see an escort from CERB go visit Secret Admirer and accept his money then just hang with him and watch TV then leave, and see Secret Admirer NOT be upset because that's all he got! Give me a break dude....

Secret Admirer.. I don't know how long you've been hobbying but in my 22 years of escorting all my clients have expected sex. Even with the dancers you have as guests in your house.. you claim to be hugging and kissing and cuddling.. which in my book is sexual contact. If I were only a guest or on a first date with someone I'd expect dinner our some other social outing and no sexual contact. If you want to call it something else by all means go ahead. But sexual contact of some sort seems to be on your agenda with dancers as well as escorts. In other words a rose by any other name is still a rose.. doesn't matter what you call it. Now.. if you say that paying outright for it is the same as a real-life date of gifts/dinner that guys pay on other dates.. I disagree. A guy buying me dinner doesn't guarantee him getting laid.. but paying me cash does. Real life dates aren't blind dates for me.. an escort date is. I don't ask what the guy looks like or if we have common interests outside of whether or not I offer the type of service he desires. I think you are mixing apples with oranges.. because the dancers you'd invite as you've said before are your 'friends.. you've met them presumably at a club and in many cases know them well before hand before you invite them to your home. Do you also meet escorts at a club? no.. or a streetwalker on the street where you can have a chat before arranging them to be a "guest'' in your home? Would they otherwise have you as a guest or be your guest if you weren't paying them? no.. and as well i would not accept payment in the form of dinner or jewlery for this service. Yes.. I do expect to be treated as a guest and treat my clients as guests like I would if I were coming over to do a tax return or whatever skill I'm being paid to provide. This one is a lot more fun however. I think that most clients if an escort invited as a guest to your home acted surprised that you wanted sex on the date and left without providing.. you'd not only be disappointed but put her on this board as a warning to others.