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I was so impressed by your example, that I've decided to also dedicate myself to God and a religious life.

I got thinking of the laws, the way it is worded we just can not allow anyone to advertise here for prostitution services. It's not to say the members here can not advertise for non-fs services here and on personal websites advertise other things... they just can not LINK from cerb to that website that offers those things. Say I am a tire salesman and I also sell pop machines on the side. I can advertise the tires here and the pop machines somewhere else (Not having the two professions directly related if I choose not to). So if you do offer prostitution services just don't advertise them here and dont put links to any ads or websites that you do offer such things. I think that will comply with the laws. We are trying to bring cerb up to date with the new laws to comply with the new rules so no one gets in trouble. We can still have our conversations here, maintain the Sp only area to help keep the ladies safe and still show a positive side to the adult industry. We just need to conform and comply with and its going to take some work to work out the bugs. SO I AM AT THIS TIME RETRACTING WHAT I SAID HERE "Anyone offering services on websites off cerb that advertises fs activities will not be permitted to post here either. Any known fs prostitute will not be permitted to advertise on cerb.... " and as long as we do not have a LINK directly to that site from cerb it should be fine. I am working on a new set of rules for the site but as everyone should know by now you CAN NOT advertise ANY prostitution related services on cerb. Please and thanks.

Hummm, I think the OP is looking for feedback and wants to avoid a potentially bad situation... So, yes, he is doing the right thing by asking around first. Calling the lady in question will not tell him if she is a legit SP or not. On the other hand, searching for her phone number on Google and using Tineye.com might provide him with some results. To the OP, I would be extra careful because of the 24/7 sign/picture she has in several of her ads: it's the same picture the 24/7 scam agency uses. More info here:http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=146788 IMO, there are other red flags in her ads so I would personally stay away.

I have also decided to turn in my abusive pimp, stop prostituting myself for my next fix, go to rehab, and join the dinosaur era by becoming a delusional extreme feminist anti myself! I will even stop having sex and promise not to masturbate anymore! Wow, I can't wait to become a real woman, a respectable one at that, with great values and morals, and not a helpless victim anymore! There might be a future for me, after-all! Thinking of it, I might even start going to church every Sunday!!! CPC, thank you so much for changing my life for the better! I don't know what I would've done without you! Truly a life saver! .........- In case anyone reads this and thinks I'm being serious, this post is 100% sarcastic and not real lol

I can't post the pics here because they are TOO HOT FOR CERB! :cooter: Visit here: www.SweetEmilyJ.com/wiggling-tongues

:66189-iconsex-teaba:chug: :tongue: I am not a buffet. Someguy, I'm sure your intentions were honourable with starting this thread, but we are trying to move away from menu style advertising. What you are proposing would turn us into a smorgasbord. But nice try. As Sassie said "cute".

Pivot legal has some great information on this bill/law. I understand your fear but this stuff is painfully easy to navigate. There will be a learning curve, not only for clients, but providers as well but let's be honest - we are a pretty smart bunch of people here. You will see advertising change drastically, it has to. You should be careful who you see (known, trusted, reviewed providers) but you should be doing that anyway. If you're onr of those people that send lewd texts, stop. I'm in ottawa and logging license plates seems silly to me. Most downtown hotels double as government parking so the same plates are there all the time. I don't think that LE is going to have the resources to go insane on this I expect a couple of big busts (or attempts..we've seen their success rate) and that's it. This will cause problems to spas, agencies and street level works. I feel awful for them but I am not involved in those categories so I cannot speak for their strategies. I'm sure they have them though

I want to join this cult, sounds amazing....wait....can we still masturbate?

If you are looking for a passionate DFK then I can highly recommend Felina. She was definitely the best kisser I have been with. Makes you think back to the great kissing with a new girlfriend in highschool.

Since joining Cerb in 2010 I have always considered this as an amazing community that was composed of a lot of great neighbours consisting of both ladies and men. For the first two years I did a lot of reading and admiring while I sort of looked out the windows to see who was visiting my neighbourhood hoping someday I would have the nerve to say hello, in 2013 I began to get the confidence to say hello when others visited my neighbourhood which has made me a much more happier and contented individual. I made a commitment to myself that in 2014 I was going to try to say hello to as many of my visiting neighbours as possible. This past year I was taken back on how great all my neighbours are and I am so grateful I decided this was going to be my special year. My special year got started in February especially when I got to visit a far away neighbour overnight for the first time and it came to a close very recently with a very special extended visit, in 2014 I got to meet some great neighbours that lived very close and some that travelled some very long distances, I even developed the confidence to flirt with a particular French redhead that she should visit my neighbourhood, a visit I will never forget. Twice this past year I even got to invite two neighbours over at the same time, one for a short visit and the other an extended visit, it was great to see how well these neighbours got along with each other which made these two visits the highlights of the year. As in every neighbourhood there is some visitors you seem to connect with a little more than the others you would like them to visit every day, with some others you get along so well you even make plans to visit their neighbourhood in the future. Overall 2014 was a year I will never forget, I thank anyone who visited my neighbourhood this past year, I enjoyed each visit very much, look forward to the possibility of visiting you again in the future whatever it holds for us. Your happy smiley Magician :)

I am amazed reading all the different posts with regards to the new law to see how many got spoiled with this business having moved to the internet. In many cases its like many think this business did not exist before. With the high price of advertising in papers and yellow pages, before internet, ladies did not have the luxury of posting menus and still had clients. Also we still had the solicitation law back then and no cell so conversation were limited to discussing time and a lady's general looks. Guess what, business survived. Its all about risk mitigation and adjusting to the law. Am I saying there will be no risk: NO But then can anyone say there is absolutely no risks involved with having sex even if you use condoms: NO However in both cases the risk is minimal. You have to make sure you protect yourself properly. Personally, as I did before the internet, I will continue building my network and not discuss sexual activities unless in private with someone. I will also continue attending social events. Unless I misread the new bill, there is nothing illegal in approaching a lady and say: Hi I am so and so, can I buy you a drink! As far as I am concern no point crying about it, simply work around it!

It's illegal to seek sexual services for money. The ladies, for the most part, that I see don't even have a menu. They are escorts and seeing them isn't illegal. When asking a lady for a encounter, I don't ask about any menu, it is about a date and time to meet her. That said, why would I be done. I'm not in breech of C36. Having a date with a woman isn't illegal. Ladies who have a menu I will avoid, they may draw LE attention. But those in this lifestyle who adapt, both ladies and gentlemen alike will still partake in it. A rambling RG

I'm changing my website around in the wake of bill c 36 and the changes that will be taking place on Cerb in regards to not advertising certain things. What about the terms "girlfriend experience" and "erotic"? Can these still be used on my site or will they be considered a no no? I am trying to describe the type of session I offer and gfe is what it is. I also offer massage and the term erotic has been used since as long as I can remember.... even before some ads became very blatant and straight forward. Thank-you in advance for your comments.

I also use a phrase. " full and complete fitness work out"

I'm in ! Maybe we should create the Fraternity of Holy Perveted ! And we should worship Life and celebrate the Goddess of Fertility, Pleasure and Freedom. Since Harper promoted the freedom of religion in China, I'm sure he will protect it in our own country. Donation accepted. lol

Not just God and a religious life, but since it was MacKay and the CPC that made me see the error of my ways, I'm going to join the conservative party:icon_rolleyes: RG :-)

To all the gentleman of Cerb please watch the video and give me you comments after. A must see video.

I know everyone recommends Felina as an awesome mature lady, but earlier this week I also went for a kink session. It was outstanding, she was extremely accommodating. She has a website where she outlines more details. Other providers that offer kink (unsure about strap on offhand) are Kayla, Zoe Zee, and Angelina Develin. All three of them are solidly reviewed, but I can't comment personally.

I have made the necessary changes and made it descriptive but not in the terms we're not allowed to use. I think I did pretty good. I have a great imagination in a way that is appealing but won't get me into trouble. lol. And on another note before publishing it, Html editor 5 is REALLY giving me a hard time tonight!

.... Assent (royal) Additional Comments: Mott the .... (Hoople)

I took all my erotic blogs down yesterday...I figure it was a bit too much. If I'm not gonna advertise sexual services...my erotic blog should not stay up...but that's my opinion...every other lady should do as they see fit Bj

ANYONE publicly offering prostitution related services will NOT Be permitted to advertise here. If the ladies website says she offers services then she will not be allowed to advertise here. Only ESCORTS, DANCERS, MASSAGE, NON FS FETISH, ETC... can advertise once this law becomes in effect. Anyone who wishes to continue to advertise on cerb must ensure they NO LONGER OFFER services of a sexual nature. You can always work as an escort (paid date, no sex just pay for time you spend with a lovely lady ... or man) but anyone advertising sexual services in exchange for money will have to advertise that somewhere else. If we on cerb are aware the person is advertising sexual services it would be our duty to remove the advertisement and ask that person to no longer advertise here. Everyone should READ the new bill to see what the new law is all about.

It really does baffle me that some people think they are safe with the existing laws now. What about being found in a bawdy house? Point being is that most people visiting SPs have ALWAYS taken a risk in one form or another which could have also turned their worlds upside down and no one seemed to care. Only difference now is a criminal record will be in place to make it official. The only thing that is going to change is that people are actually going to have to do their research. Many have been become very complacent and have also taken chances in meeting women they have no clue about. They see an ad and call. You don't know what's waiting for you behind that door. So why all of a sudden now? If a person takes the time to do some actual research, there won't be a problem. Business will carry on as usual.

The overwhelming majority of players both sp's and clients don't belong or participate on the various boards and I dare say some of have no idea C-36 is even coming down or what it might or might not mean. So obviously there will be some casualties and I assume ignorance will not be excused. There will be media coverage on the initial arrests and disposition of the charges for sure. Once that happens and a clearer picture is available there will be a further review of participation for some. Each individual will measure the risk/reward based on their personal situations. Whether it be career related or life related. Opinions expressed here are just that......opinions as no one knows for sure what the level of law enforcement will be and the ramifications of same. I respect the whistle through the grave yard types even though personally I think some of of it is a bit of bravado and even a little naive and I also respect the very concerned types whom might come across as a little paranoid or jumping the gun. In any event times they are a changing and there will ultimately be a new normal and how long that takes is really anybodies guess. Peace MG

I can't speak for anyone else, but I plan to treat C36 with the contempt it deserves and carry on as I do now. As far as the guys are concerned, I suspect that provided you can avoid the cops who are posing as SPs either on the street or on BP, etc then your chances of getting caught are vanishingly small.

I respect your decision and everyone has a right to do what they need to do to protect their security. Perhaps you will change you mind as time passes. In MHO, we just need to be vigilant, both ladies and gentleman. Good common sense applies here. To me it so very simple, I will only advertise in a way that in no way will implicates me to money for any sexual service . Time, time , time. Gents if you are unsure please see only a lady with a presence and a track record. If you are unsure gentlemen please contact a lady that you already have an established friendship with. We are here to help and will never steer you wrong. Good common sense will prevail and we will not be stopped .

Ed Sheeran - Don't :icon_cool:

Some of the new social messaging platforms are offering interesting options for communication in the new legal world... for example the latest version of BlackBerry Messenger offers the option of timed messages that the reader can only see for a predetermined amount of time... with the already good security of BBM this added feature would be an excellent way for a more explicit conversation with no real record of it existing... with BBM now available on all phone platforms I would love to see more ladies use it. Just my Opinion

Hello gentlemen..I am the ultimate indulgence. My exotic side is hidden by my sweet, adorable personality. I take pride in providing an experience that is all about YOU. I go beyond the extra mile to make sure your time with me is genuinely one to remember. I have the figure and body that will stay in your mind forever. I have the hands and lips that you will still feel on your body for a lifetime. There is much more that will forever be in your thoughts. I am the perfect lady for your very desires. Respond to me and I WILL take care of you! Please call or text to book only. 506-663-8459

Hi there, thank you for checking my ad. You will not be disappointed with my A+++ services ( the lady, the services, the place) My name is Vivian. I'm 28 years old. Gorgeous, i am a classy looking Lady with long black hair, seductive cat eyes and full sexy lips, beautiful silky soft, tanned skin. work out body with all the right curves in the right places. You have finally met the sweet girl next door, also the naughty girl in your dreams... I greet you at the door with a lovely smile then lead you to the massage room...I will start with a deep soothing tissue massage to relax all your muscles then follow with a soft, sensual, tease touch to invigorate your whole body then the fun time ... It will be the most relaxing, creative and passionate session for you ever. So amazing that you cannot help yourself from thinking about it and want to come back for more ! http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=92146 For relaxing massage $40/30m $50/45m $70/60m appointment only, call/text me at 613 712 1200 mon to sat 10am to 7pm

Don't forget to get your ticket!!! Email money transfers is available (please note, for those wanting to pay in person that Loneskater is away for a few days), or if you want to get a ticket through ALO, you get 20$ off your appointment! Get yours before they're all gone! It's going to be a great Christmas party!!!

! Sexy spinner Hannah Star will be in Brockville someday soon if you book now! OTTAWA OUTCalLS ToDAY!!! kingston this week prebook by email superfriendhannahstar.com [email protected] Ottawa outcalls today!

Probably not cool to call out another member but I am always wary of members who constantly asking about Sps from other sites but have no personal experiences to add. And why the 3 year absence? I was surprised to see some of his posts slipped by the mod's radar (asking for illegal and bbf services). If he is not willing to stick with reputable cerb ladies, then let him TOFTT.

Located in Ottawa south until late! Full GFE (no greek) 150 - HH 180 - 45min (MSOG) 240 - Hour 340 - 1.5 Hour Text me directly 613. 255. 5904 Xo 5'7 140LBS BLONDE HAIR GREEN EYES 36C LIMITED RESTRICTIONS 613. 255. 5904 TEXT

The law as it is written says "286.4 Everyone who knowingly advertises an offer to provide sexual services for consideration is guilty" if ads posted on cerb do not offer any sexual services then they are permitted from my understanding. Also we do have 30 days grace. "The provisions of this Act, other than sections 46 to 48, come into force 30 days after the day on which this Act receives royal assent." so 30 days from yesterday.

I started a similar thread here with some helpful advice from many members

Well shit, color me foolish, Miss Nicki, lol. And here I thought I was being helpful. Oh well, I'll read the new one too and btw, I don't mind "wordy". I actually love the sensual prose. The more of it there is, the happier and more intrigued I become. Now if I could only win the damn lottery.

Lol, my imagination is limited so feel like I'm trouble . Will be watching carefully .

This one is the one that most forget about. Financial planning is key to any business. Budgeting, evaluating expense to see where you can cut cost, saving, paying out of pocket, not on credit. Etc. Some ladies don't even keep track of their income vrs business expenses before looking at take home cash vrs natural living costs.

Reviews for SPs, much like reviews for movies, are indeed often in the eyes of the beholder. One person's diamond is another person's pile of ****. Having said that, I look at the quantity and quality of reviews. If 10 people says that "Lisa" (to pick a name) is awesome, and 1 person says that Lisa is horrible, odds are good she's awesome. Conversely, if 10 people say Lisa is horrible and 1 says great, odds are decent that I'm not going to have a great time. I can further this with the voice of recent experience. After significant research, I visited one provider this week (Felina) who has great reviews by most. I had an amazingly awesome time (will review fully once I'm home at a desktop instead of tablet), and in fact went back for a second visit. Everything I wanted and expected, and more. I also, in a moment of thinking with the wrong part of my body, visited a BP provider who has received massive bad reviews on another board. She had the occasional good review, but overwhelmingly people said "don't". I thought we might click despite the reviews. We didn't, she was exactly as other people said, and I might of well had climbed on a blow up doll. I don't regret it (well, she was a *cute* blow up doll) but the reviews were pretty spot on. So yes, don't let bad reviews sway you completely, make up your own mind. But realize you often lose, playing against the odds. Another way to look at it... If a SP is getting constant good reviews, they must be doing something right. Give them a try, before rolling the dice on the unknown. Reward them, because the ones with good reviews are usually the established professionals.

Big boobs 32F, Blond movie star, PSE GFE Fetish :handcuffs: Ottawa LAST DAY TODAY Nov 7 Hello guys, I'm a bombshell 32F-24-33, blond. 5'5" 110 pds. I'm a movie star. I do PSE, GFE and fetish, and I have toys. ;) Your pleasure is my priority ;) Come play with me. Ottawa last day TODAY Friday November 7. I'm open minded, I can't wait for have fun with you !!! See you soon. Incalls. Lexxy 514-993-7393 (text is the best but you can call)

Bawdy houses are still criminal. Just an FYI. In only very limited contexts are they not criminal. So you've already received wrong advice. This is a two way street: both you and the provider carry a risk. Some of these risks can be reduced or mitigated by following advice that is posted else where on this board. You don't want to get caught seeing a provider? Don't do anything out of the ordinary if you never been caught now. And most certainly don't do anything stupid. And to squirtingmilf's point: 100% these laws put much more risk onto the provider. Like they said at senate, the goal isn't to make them safer or protect providers, it's to make it so horrible that nobody wants to do it. And judging by your fears and many others, they have succeeded. Xo

Well, the poll is now closed, and we can now summarize it. There were 104 votes (nice!). By far, the majority of participants are married -- happily, as far as they're concerned -- but they keep this hobby a secret from their spouses, this is 54.8% of all participants. The next major category of participants are single people. They are not in a relationship, therefore they are doing this with a clear conscience. 34.6% of all participants. Trailing far behind, are the married participants in unhappy marriages, which is a little surprising, as most people would think that married people engaging in extra-marital affairs aren't happy in their marriages. Only 7.7% of participants are here. And the final two categories are the truly rare (and lucky!) individuals who are in a relationship, are completely open about this hobby with their SO's, and their SO's are completely okay with it! Not only that, but there are also those even luckier individuals where their SO's actually participate in the hobby with them! The first bunch comprise 1.9%, while the second bunch is 1.0% of participants. So there you have it, I leave it up to you to come to your own conclusions about what this reveals about us. :biggrin:

Greetings Gentleman, Are you seeking a fun and sexy escapade that is sure to take you to new heights in absolute mind and body relaxation? I'm the picture of femininity, but with the skill to relieve your muscular tension and pave the way to complete euphoria that will leave you sighing with ecstasy... My focus is to relax your muscular aches and pains, heighten your sensitivities, reduce your inhibitions and improve your conscious state of mind. All which simply amounts to-one amazing adventure! My schedule this week: Monday-Friday: 9:00am-3:00pm. My recommendations: http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthr...t=sensual+erin I'm located in a private and comfy location in the west end for your convenience. Please feel free to inquire by pm or an email to [email protected]. I look forward to learning more about you. Yours, Erin xoxo

What a colossal waste of time , I think that if they took all the money and time wasted on this bill/law or whatever and donated it to the food bank or spca or Christmas daddies maybe they could spend a bit more time trying to catch real criminals . Really its just a giant clusterf#@k , I am not changing my fun habits , people have sex , always have always will , what a CROCK. My 2 cents

Although I can certainly understand where the OP is coming from and his reluctance to keep on seeing ladies because he now risks the possibility of having a tarnished reputation, you really have to understand those in support of Bill C-36 and what their objectives are. These are people that want to do rescue work (it's very profitable) and although they want to END our entire industry, the porn industry etc. they have main targets of where they want to start. And although I'm not saying with 100% certainty that what I'm about to say is true, I've dealt with some of the abolishment agencies personally and so that is where I'm coming from with my statements. They believe that every single one of us are victimized, we are all here not of our own free will, however that being said; more emphasis will be put on those coming from other countries to work here, because those are "human trafficking victims". So targets, asian massage parlours and asian micros. Then the next thing they carry on about are the all the "underage ladies" that are being "trafficked" and working "against their will" or "being pimped". This will be where they start, because they can "rescue" more "victims" in massage parlours than they can individual ladies, ladies that are established and those of us that have been around for a long time. When you think about it logically, who can they brainwash more easily into buying their "victim mentality and agenda"? Those who don't speak English and don't understand what's going on and those that are super young and naive. Those are the type of people they prey on, who they deem to be the most vulnerable. If you've got super asshole police officers in your city where they bust frequently, etc. then yeah I can see them picking on some independent ladies, but remember one thing, the abolishment agencies have an agenda and your average independent lady isn't it. I could be 100% wrong in what I've just said, but you really need to understand the inner workings of how they think. I wrote a very long post about this here http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=197352 Additional Comments: I remember back in the day, there were no pictures, you called ladies from the yellow pages and you got what you got at your door. Then along came newspapers same thing. Then we could start putting pictures in our ads and when web sites were just starting everyone was asking for them .. now half the people don't read them or do research. Today some guy called me and asked me for information, I told him to google my number .. his response - "I don't have time for that, fuck off" .. He'll be one of those guys that will get a great shock to his system when he gets busted and frankly I won't miss assholes like that.

Sorry Emily, I missed your original point. I would think if you're not advertising here then it would be okay to be a member. It's all about the advertising and the discussing for money. If neither of those things are happening then as a "regular" member it shouldn't impact. The final decision on that is solely in the hands of the CERB hierarchy. Hopefully we will know solid details about many aspects in the next week or so.

Greetings Gentleman, Are you seeking a fun and sexy escapade that is sure to take you to new heights in absolute mind and body relaxation? I'm the picture of femininity, but with the skill to relieve your muscular tension and pave the way to complete euphoria that will leave you sighing with ecstasy... My focus is to relax your muscular aches and pains, heighten your sensitivities, reduce your inhibitions and improve your conscious state of mind. All which simply amounts to-one amazing adventure! My schedule this week: Monday-Friday: 9:00am-3:00pm. My recommendations: http://www.cerb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43994&highlight=sensual+erin I'm located in a private and comfy location in the west end for your convenience. Please feel free to inquire by pm or an email to [email protected]. I look forward to learning more about you. Yours, Erin xoxo

Ad on Bp for blond calling herself destiny at 150h. Address was on Jackson rd Dartmouth. Got robbed outright by a dude and girl. Girl was not girl from ad.

thanks cat. this post has lifted my spirits a little more. the site has grown so large that I really can't do it on my own and I have been pushing myself this last year to a breaking point. people are constantly complaining and everyone seams to feel they need to tell me how to do things. most people do not consider that they are just one person demanding my time with frivolous complaints, whining and my favorite... redundant bitching (when they just repeat themselves over and over than get pissed off when I tell them where to go or remove them) with the site growing so large we have 10 times more spammers (you rarely see these as I remove them before you ever see them... only a few get by recentlybecause some exploit exists that has not been patched yet that allows the spammers to circumvent the moderation queue) .. I would estimate 300+ spam posts are removed each month. title infractions.... we don't want the site to lookk like cl with all the crazy post titles trying to out do the next one and gain the most attention... so i have very specific rules to stop this and i use to take the time to pm each person and tell them what they did wrong... i found that even when i took the time people would ignore the pm and continue to break the rules so now i just delete the post and give them a infraction with a link to the rules.. I get people every day wasting my time asking me to elaborate on what they did wrong... did they read the link with the rules??? NO... They are just wasting my time. about 300 posts a month break this rule and more than 1/2 of them break the rule over and over again. This is disrespectful and these people do not deserve to use the site so I just keep deleting the ad posts and eventually just remove them. if they are literate enough to post an ad they can dam well read the rules or they are not welcome here. when I suspend someone (especially a SP or a male member with 50+ posts) i get people PM me (who only hear one side of the story) demanding I let them back or telling me I was wrong or calling me a dictator. These people run to the other sites and tell everyone how horrible I am (and really that did not bother me in the past but now its getting a little annoying).. FINALLY... we have those idiots who post shit like "I am affraid to post on cerb because I will get in trouble" or "I know the rule is... hopefully the mod does not remove me" or the really big idiots who want to fight with me on the site and don't think I have the balls to kick them off!! Yes, it wears on me!! Yes, I am done with it and yes I would not wish this job on anyone. Cat probably meant to post this in the PRIVATE area away from public view but we can let everyone know. I am done and I am working on a way to keep the site moving forward. We are looking for a way to have the community help moderate the site (Myself, the SP's who have SP ONLY access and the ELITE members have a private discussion thread where we are trying to come up with a solution that will keep the site moving forward and keep the integrity of the site alive. I have confidence in our members (Most of them) and I think a few should be removed who are trouble makers but I will leave that up to the people who will take my place as the decision makers. This is not open for public debate but if you are an elite member or a SP ONLY member you are welcome to comment in the private area and have your say. We would love to hear any idea's. If you are not able to see that area please DO NOT pm me. My PM is very busy and full with all this. I am willing to help the transition go forward smoothly (I am not walking away tomorrow or anything) I will continue forward and make sure the site is in good hands before I move on. I will probably always be part of the site in some sort of way (System admin, Server Admin, Software upgrades, etc... after all I am a computer guy and not a politian).